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My Baby is TOO CUTE for Facebook. I need a Modeling Agency
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hey guys, do you worry about your daughters getting spoiled by all of this and falling into the deplorable Korean superficiality that seems to be taking over their society?

That was one of the biggest reasons I had to get out of Korea. I hated all the attention my daughter was getting for being "beautiful" and "unique". I HATED how unbelievably superficial my MIL was and how she fussed over my daughter and spent money on the ugliest "pretty" clothes for her. Even my wife, who is generally down to earth and not consumed by consumerism, started getting sucked into the superficiality of the whole thing. When MIL started shopping pics of her to modeling agencies, I knew it was absolutely time to head back to Canada.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to get down on you for staying there and becoming involved in this whole scene, but I'm just curious if you have the concerns I did and how you handle them.

I'm sure there's things a dad and mom can do to make sure their daughter doesn't get spoiled by all of it, but I felt it would have been a difficult fight that would have pitted me against them.

Part of the problem is probably me. I have expectations for my daughter that don't jive with Korean expectations: I want her to be well educated, ATHLETIC, and cute. I am so thankful to be in Canada now where she can do all of this and not stand out from every other kid. I probably could have found a way to do that in Korea, but it's much easier to do here.

It's actually quite comical when the in-laws and us have our yearly visits: MIL freaking out over seeing my daughter play hockey, soccer etc. Freaking out about all of our wrestling matches. And me freaking out when I see some of the wardrobes my MIL has bought for her.

[/quote]
Nope, not worried about her being "spoiled by all of this." If you raise them right as a parent, I don't see this being an issue. You need to teach them perspective. But yeah, if your family was that odd about it, I could see your concerns. It sounds like more of a family issue you have found you need to deal with internally, which is a good idea.

Just an FYI, I've found it to be a Canadian cultural difference/issue to be overly concerned that ones child is "not too special" in any way. I see differences there between Canadian and US kids in terms of this. Often, in the USA, the problem is the opposite -- people view their kid as being so special when they're really not. My generation was different. Times have changed.

Our daughter gets all of the "beautiful" comments, just like many other kids do, and actually, she doesn't like hearing it. She'll sometimes turn her head away, or stick her hand up and shake her head, "no." It's somewhat comical, and makes people laugh. In general, we are not comfortable with strangers oogling or doting on her at all, and she has picked this up and doesn't care for it, either. I'm working on teaching her to say, "thank-you" but leave it at that.

I don't understand the comment about your kid not getting any chance to be athletic in Korea. Maybe just not athletic in the sports you value (hockey, for example?). Parents here need to get out a bit more and see all of the different ways kids can enjoy sports. It just takes a parent doing more than sending them off to school and expecting to have school-run sports. They can enjoy swimming, soccer, golf, taekwondo/Hapkio/etc., boxing, volleyball, and if they are really athletic, they are able to join a school oriented towards training them in their activity (like track, etc.). It's all out there if you just get up and find it.

Honestly, sports are something I'd like her involved in, too, but only what she enjoys. I'm interested in finding her some sort of tumbling/gymnastics hagwon. Pushing her to do too many sports would be akin to Koreans sending a kid to too many hagwons, IMHO. I'd like to be the proud parent watching my kid from the stands, but seriously-- is that for them or for the parent?

In terms of educated... not a worry for me, either. She's already speaking 2 languages, and speaks Korean at a higher level than most kids. I am a teacher myself, and my wife is also very good at teaching/working with her. She won't have to waste her time learning English in school or a hagwon, and will have time to study math or other things. As far as fears of her learning creativity, or critical thinking skills -- that's easy for us to teach, as well. We can have the best of both worlds here, and as a bonus, I don't need to worry about my kid being infected by the liberal trash mentality ruining education in US schools.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to echo what dodge said.... We may be back in the states one day. I can only hope.
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swashbuckler



Joined: 20 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
and as a bonus, I don't need to worry about my kid being infected by the liberal trash mentality ruining education in US schools.


Yeah that "liberal trash mentality" in schools with their radical ideas like teaching evolution, global warming, and an acceptance of other people's differences
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swashbuckler



Joined: 20 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having grown up in New England I personally would never raise a child in Korea (ESPECIALLY in central Seoul..Jeju or a small coastal city might be more agreeable) beyond Kindergarden age for a huge number of reasons and I have already made this very clear to my Korean wife. But that's just me!
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swashbuckler



Joined: 20 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
I don't understand the comment about your kid not getting any chance to be athletic in Korea. Maybe just not athletic in the sports you value (hockey, for example?). Parents here need to get out a bit more and see all of the different ways kids can enjoy sports. It just takes a parent doing more than sending them off to school and expecting to have school-run sports. They can enjoy swimming, soccer, golf, taekwondo/Hapkio/etc., boxing, volleyball, and if they are really athletic, they are able to join a school oriented towards training them in their activity (like track, etc.). It's all out there if you just get up and find it.


This might apply when the child is young...but most Korean girls when they get a bit older are discouraged from playing sports because doesn't fit the stereotype of being 'lady-like' in K-land (appearances first). A lot of Korean guys or older Koreans in general would probably be intimated or turned off buy a women who was really athletic or a huge jock unless she was an Olympic seonsu. The rail-thin "beautiful" Oooppaaa!! "princess" types get all the boys here, just turn on the TV. "Strong" women, physically and in other ways (wanting to stand out from the crowd, not always deferring to elders), are still viewed as an anomaly here, whether you agree with it or not.

In addition, very few girls also have time to partake in sports or other extra- circulars in high school because they have independent study time at their school until 9 or 10 at night. Korean schools in general lack the "sports culture" or "athlete worship" you find in schools in Canada or the U.S.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, my daughter won't need to spend so much time in hagwons during the evening. She's currently about 3 to 6 months behind her identically-aged US cousin in English speech, with no accent. She won't have to study English at night. That will free her up for other things, if she so desires.

And who is going to be "discouraging her" for not being lady-like by enjoying a sport? You think she's going to turn into some unwanted muscle-bound freak for joining a sport? Puhleeese.... next are you going to tell us that these women who spend 10 hours a day engaging in cardio exercise in a dance studio are ugly? Yeah... Korean guys hate girls who look like that, and they are oh, so horribly intimidated. Laughing

Also, be careful trying to apply what you perceive as current Korean values on a girl who will be of high school age in a very long 14 years.

Swashbuckler, your idea of what you think Korean men want and what reality is differ greatly. Quite frankly, I find your statements foolish and outright hilarious.

Besides, where is it written that a child in the West must take part in sports, anyway? More often than not, they don't. It's really going to be her choice.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swashbuckler wrote:
Swampfox10mm wrote:
and as a bonus, I don't need to worry about my kid being infected by the liberal trash mentality ruining education in US schools.


Yeah that "liberal trash mentality" in schools with their radical ideas like teaching evolution, global warming, and an acceptance of other people's differences


1. You mentioned evolution, not me.
2. Please keep in mind that your "global warming" champion just sold his TV station to big oil. You all got suckered. Just because I'm not a liberal does not mean I don't care about the environment.
3. Just because I'm not a liberal does not mean I don't accept peoples' differences.

You know, I sit here and read about all of the "superiority" of the educational system in the USA/Canada/Britain/etc., and here's the thing...

This talk generally comes from English teachers with degrees in Western subjects that did not get them a job at home, nor a salary that was enough to live on, let alone pay off their bills. I've grown tired of all of the smugness.

At the same time, I've got Korean students whom I taught years ago that are now out making money around the globe. One of them built her own business last year, and just made $200,000 in sales in her first year. She bought a Lexus.

So what do you drive?

The future is about learning to work in a global economy and speaking more than one language. It ain't about parkin' your butt in Thunder Bay, endebting yourself to a near useless Liberal Arts degree, and not being able to find a job to pay it off.


Last edited by Swampfox10mm on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
swashbuckler wrote:
Swampfox10mm wrote:
and as a bonus, I don't need to worry about my kid being infected by the liberal trash mentality ruining education in US schools.


Yeah that "liberal trash mentality" in schools with their radical ideas like teaching evolution, global warming, and an acceptance of other people's differences


1. You mentioned evolution, not me.
2. Please keep in mind that your "global warming" champion just sold his TV station to big oil. You all got suckered. Just because I'm not a liberal does not mean I don't care about the environment.
3. Just because I'm a liberal does not mean I don't accept peoples' differences.

You know, I sit here and read about all of the "superiority" of the educational system in the USA/Canada/Britain/etc., and here's the thing...

This talk generally comes from English teachers with degrees in Western subjects that did not get them a job at home, nor a salary that was enough to live on, let alone pay off their bills. I've grown tired of all of the smugness.

At the same time, I've got Korean students whom I taught years ago that are now out making money around the globe. One of them built her own business last year, and just made $200,000 in sales in her first year. She bought a Lexus.

So what do you drive?

The future is about learning to work in a global economy and speaking more than one language. It ain't about parkin' your butt in Thunder Bay, endebting yourself to a near useless Liberal Arts degree, and not being able to find a job to pay it off.


I know a liberal guy who made over 800,000 usd last year pressing two buttons to buy and sell stock. Does that mean he's better than you? Is that your point? Pathetic.
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Newbie



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swashbuckler wrote:


This might apply when the child is young...but most Korean girls when they get a bit older are discouraged from playing sports because doesn't fit the stereotype of being 'lady-like' in K-land (appearances first). A lot of Korean guys or older Koreans in general would probably be intimated or turned off buy a women who was really athletic or a huge jock unless she was an Olympic seonsu. The rail-thin "beautiful" Oooppaaa!! "princess" types get all the boys here, just turn on the TV. "Strong" women, physically and in other ways (wanting to stand out from the crowd, not always deferring to elders), are still viewed as an anomaly here, whether you agree with it or not.

In addition, very few girls also have time to partake in sports or other extra- circulars in high school because they have independent study time at their school until 9 or 10 at night. Korean schools in general lack the "sports culture" or "athlete worship" you find in schools in Canada or the U.S.


This.

What Korea values in women is greatly different than the West. Yes, there are opportunities in Korea for girls to get into sports, but it is nowhere even close to the opportunities in the West. Yes, some Koreans respect athletic women who aren't the flaky, rail thin whiners. But nowhere near as much as in the West. And for me, no, it wasn't a concern about hockey. Canada simply offers so many more, and so many diverse, opportunities (leisure/athletics wise) than Korea.

The peer and cultural pressure against being well rounded (educated, athletic, independent, strong and lovely) was more than I would be willing to put up with in Korea.

Having said that, though, Swamp does raise a good point about 14 years from now. Korea does adapt quickly and they are very quick to pick up on all the positive sides of Western culture. It's gotten them to where they are now, so I'm sure the image of Women will improve more over the years and be better aligned with the West. (we've already helped them come so far in those regards)

As for education, that was a minor concern to us. I see some benefits to the Korean education system (strong in Maths and Sciences, discipline), but to me the Western model of teaching responsibility, individuality, freedom, respect for others, global perspective (Canada at least... not so sure about the US) is much better. Now, it often happens in the West that poor parenting and laziness results is a very poor outcome. But with parents who have their heads on straight and focus on education, the West offers limitless advantages that Korea just can't compare to.

Swamp, I don't question your overall decision to stay in Korea. I can see why it makes sense. (my initial concern was just the whole modeling/spoiled issue). So please don't take my comments as slagging you off for deciding to stay there.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No_hite_pls wrote:
Swampfox10mm wrote:
swashbuckler wrote:
Swampfox10mm wrote:
and as a bonus, I don't need to worry about my kid being infected by the liberal trash mentality ruining education in US schools.


Yeah that "liberal trash mentality" in schools with their radical ideas like teaching evolution, global warming, and an acceptance of other people's differences


1. You mentioned evolution, not me.
2. Please keep in mind that your "global warming" champion just sold his TV station to big oil. You all got suckered. Just because I'm not a liberal does not mean I don't care about the environment.
3. Just because I'm a liberal does not mean I don't accept peoples' differences.

You know, I sit here and read about all of the "superiority" of the educational system in the USA/Canada/Britain/etc., and here's the thing...

This talk generally comes from English teachers with degrees in Western subjects that did not get them a job at home, nor a salary that was enough to live on, let alone pay off their bills. I've grown tired of all of the smugness.

At the same time, I've got Korean students whom I taught years ago that are now out making money around the globe. One of them built her own business last year, and just made $200,000 in sales in her first year. She bought a Lexus.

So what do you drive?

The future is about learning to work in a global economy and speaking more than one language. It ain't about parkin' your butt in Thunder Bay, endebting yourself to a near useless Liberal Arts degree, and not being able to find a job to pay it off.


I know a liberal guy who made over 800,000 usd last year pressing two buttons to buy and sell stock. Does that mean he's better than you? Is that your point? Pathetic.


No. And that's what you thought I said? Yeah... pathetic (on your part).
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swashbuckler



Joined: 20 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
Swashbuckler, your idea of what you think Korean men want and what reality is differ greatly. Quite frankly, I find your statements foolish and outright hilarious.


Um, this from the guy who made idiotic lame comments on here (in the past, under a different name) such as he prefers dating Asian girls because they fit the mold of what a "real" woman should be or something like that?

Sorry, I don't know many Korean women who spend 10 hours in the gym everyday unless they're trying to lose weight. Is that what your previous UBlove dates did?

I have no idea what Korea will be like 14 years from now. Probably not that much different now, culturally speaking, I suspect. I was talking about right now and I wasn't even specifically referring to your daughter.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swashbuckler wrote:
Swampfox10mm wrote:
Swashbuckler, your idea of what you think Korean men want and what reality is differ greatly. Quite frankly, I find your statements foolish and outright hilarious.


Um, this from the guy who made idiotic lame comments on here (in the past, under a different name) such as he prefers dating Asian girls because they fit the mold of what a "real" woman should be or something like that?

Sorry, I don't know many Korean women who spend 10 hours in the gym everyday unless they're trying to lose weight. Is that what your previous UBlove dates did?

I have no idea what Korea will be like 14 years from now. Probably not that much different now, culturally speaking, I suspect. I was talking about right now and I wasn't even specifically referring to your daughter.



Cast me in whatever mold you want "or something like that." You're off on tangents that make no sense.

I make a comment that my daughter can take sports in the evening, and you explode into this odd mix about how Korean men don't like women who do sports, because muscular women are unattractive. And now you're talking about women spending 10 hours in the gym unless they're trying to lose weight.

Basically, your comments are so over the board they are a waste of time to bother responding to anymore. Good luck with kids. They're gonna need it with you as a father.
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swashbuckler



Joined: 20 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
swashbuckler wrote:
Swampfox10mm wrote:
Swashbuckler, your idea of what you think Korean men want and what reality is differ greatly. Quite frankly, I find your statements foolish and outright hilarious.


Um, this from the guy who made idiotic lame comments on here (in the past, under a different name) such as he prefers dating Asian girls because they fit the mold of what a "real" woman should be or something like that?

Sorry, I don't know many Korean women who spend 10 hours in the gym everyday unless they're trying to lose weight. Is that what your previous UBlove dates did?

I have no idea what Korea will be like 14 years from now. Probably not that much different now, culturally speaking, I suspect. I was talking about right now and I wasn't even specifically referring to your daughter.



Cast me in whatever mold you want "or something like that." You're off on tangents that make no sense.

I make a comment that my daughter can take sports in the evening, and you explode into this odd mix about how Korean men don't like women who do sports, because muscular women are unattractive. And now you're talking about women spending 10 hours in the gym unless they're trying to lose weight.

Basically, your comments are so over the board they are a waste of time to bother responding to anymore. Good luck with kids. They're gonna need it with you as a father.


and if you still can't grasp my point then I think your daughter is the one who needs help..good luck with teaching those "creativity" and "critical thinking skills" Laughing
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bottom line is that in the 21st century one should try and get their kids as much exposure around the globe as possible. Ideally our kids would spend substantive amounts of time here, back home, and in a 3rd or even 4th country.

I'll say this, if your job is teaching English and you are in Korea, it is far easier to get them international exposure than in Canada or the US, as flights to Japan, China, Hong Kong, and the Philippines are within a reasonable cost level for a middle-class family. Not to mention, the Chinese language opportunities are better here.

Of course if you're from Jolly Old England, then this doesn't apply. In that case, who can argue with France and the Netherlands a stone's throw away?

It all depends on how your kid develops and what they show interest and aptitude in. The merits of science in Korea or athletics back home are irrelevant if your kid has little interest in such things.

Basically, its really hard to decide where to live and what to do until they're at least 5 years old and start to develop a personality. Also, if your child has an outgoing personality and is socially talented, moving them across the globe could produce profound changes in their personality, and not necessarily healthy ones.

It's about the kid and their values, not yours, especially since most of us are operating on a notion of the world that has since been passed by.

One things for sure, all that "education system" and 'culture' stuff does not appear to be THAT significant in determining success and achievement in the developed world. All countries have wealthy athletes, artists, sports stars, musicians, scientists, writers, comedians, factory workers, business workers, soldiers, teachers, etc. All can move to another country and thrive. None is so hampered that their system or culture inhibits individual success.

Whatever you do, avoid being 'Immigrant Daddy' who can barely speak the language, forces the culture of ancestry down their kids throat, and is an utter dinosaur. And if you go back home, watch out for 'Immigrant Mommy'. Maybe a 3rd party country is best? Why not Brazil?
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rainman3277



Joined: 13 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
It all depends on how your kid develops and what they show interest and aptitude in. The merits of science in Korea or athletics back home are irrelevant if your kid has little interest in such things.


nailed it.

p.s. thread effectively trolled.
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