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Big cuts in public school jobs?
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T-J



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yonshinnae

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinship wrote:


I have been here a long time...




Relatively speaking, no you haven't.
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kinship



Joined: 24 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T-J wrote:
kinship wrote:


I have been here a long time...




Relatively speaking, no you haven't.


The more I read your posts the more jealous I think you are. I may not have been in country as long as you but I have been involved with the people of this country and the country itself a long, long time. Probably before you were born. And that is all I will say about it.
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T-J



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yonshinnae

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinship wrote:
T-J wrote:
kinship wrote:


I have been here a long time...




Relatively speaking, no you haven't.


The more I read your posts the more jealous I think you are.


You would have to have something that I want and you obviously do not.

kinship wrote:

I may not have been in country as long as you....


See. I was right. Thanks for conceding the point.

kinship wrote:

...but I have been involved with the people of this country and the country itself a long, long time. Probably before you were born.


Completely irrelevant. We are talking about time spent in country. If you want to open the discussion up to other things let's start with language ability.

kinship wrote:

And that is all I will say about it.


Promise?
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kinship



Joined: 24 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Completely irrelevant.


I am afraid it is not irrelevant but you like to feel superior to others so you will think what you want.

Quote:
Promise?


I have no plans to speak about it again.
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Weigookin74



Joined: 26 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kinship"]
Quote:
I fully expect computer programs and/or telepresence to replace the "fly a native speaker across the world" system at some point in the future.


they could have done this at any time over the past 20 years

Quote:
But you're not going to get the same conversational/pronunciation/usage education from a non-native (and generally non-fluent) speaker who spends 99% of their time outside the classroom using a different language.


Yet they have done this and still do this in the west all the time. Why is it okay for the western schools to do this and not the Korean ones?[/quote

Who actually learns the language in the west? French taught from Grade 3 to 10, but not many people speak it well beyond simple phrases and words. Those Korean kids who do English the same in only public school with no hakwons or regular contact with foriegners have poor English skills. There are exceptions for some who are self motivated of course. But the kids who are good at English took extra training from a young age outside of the school to a large degree.
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alongway



Joined: 02 Jan 2012

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weigookin74 wrote:
kinship wrote:
Quote:
I fully expect computer programs and/or telepresence to replace the "fly a native speaker across the world" system at some point in the future.


they could have done this at any time over the past 20 years

Quote:
But you're not going to get the same conversational/pronunciation/usage education from a non-native (and generally non-fluent) speaker who spends 99% of their time outside the classroom using a different language.


Yet they have done this and still do this in the west all the time. Why is it okay for the western schools to do this and not the Korean ones?


Who actually learns the language in the west? French taught from Grade 3 to 10, but not many people speak it well beyond simple phrases and words. Those Korean kids who do English the same in only public school with no hakwons or regular contact with foriegners have poor English skills. There are exceptions for some who are self motivated of course. But the kids who are good at English took extra training from a young age outside of the school to a large degree.

Very few people learn anything beyond basic familiarity, Ou est la bibliotheque? in their public school classes in the west. If anyone is actually serious about learning those languages, they would seek out additional classes or a native speaker to try and learn from (Along with books, audio material, etc)

The difference is, that outside French in eastern Canada, few generally consider any languages a "necessity" like they consider English here. And those in eastern Canada often try to get their kids in French Immersion which generally involves teachers with high levels of french or native french teachers along with taking nearly every class in French itself, except for classes from specialty teachers, phys ed, music, art, etc.
Maybe it's time some public schools started offering a full English immersion program similar to that. Separate from the International schools, but part of the normal public school program from Grade 1.

For the most part, I've met few, if any, Koreans who are really capable of teaching high level English. At a higher level you should be able to receive your instruction in English. The people who take various high level government classes here, like the Korean integration program do so in Korean, not in English or something else. While a low level beginners class might involve some translation for clarity, higher level classes really shouldn't. However, there are plenty of "high" level classes that do nothing but have a Korean speaking Korean for an hour who barely says more than half a dozen English words during the entire class.

Another issue you have is pronunciation and only long timers can probably notice this, but since the heavy introduction of native speakers in the kindergarten/elementary level, I would say that kids are coming out with better pronunciation then they were many years ago. You'd have to compare someone who is in say grade 3-4 now, as they likely would have had a native speaker in their kindergarten for all years, as well as through grade 1-3/4 vs someone about 5-10 years ago who may have only started to get a native speaker in grade 1 or 2. Even comparing a kid in grade 2 who had english education through kindergarten vs a kid who was in grade 5 and hadn't but had since grade 1, I found a significant difference.

So it's definitely a good thing for them to keep the native speakers at the lower levels, but it's a bad idea to remove them at the middle and high school level. It will just drive more parents to the hagwons. Wasn't that one of those things they were doing to ensure the parents didn't have to "waste" money on hagwon was to make sure all the schools had a native speaker?
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Tyshine



Joined: 04 Apr 2011

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinship wrote:
Quote:
If by doing the job you mean reading into a book and every once in a while saying an English word with a strong Korean accent then they are doing an awesome job. I'm talking about HS level. Maybe they are better at your school, but based on the classes I have seen and level of my students I wouldn't say they do a very good job. Now as to wether NETs are the answer is another issue.


I have been here a long time and I have seen a steady improvement over the past 10 years. Yes there may be some holdout older Korean English teachers but the younger ones are vastly better.

You also have to remember most Korean English teachers are not teaching conversational English like westerners are supposed to teach. They focus on grammar, sentence structure and other technical points that demand explanation in Korean so the students can understand English a lot easier and better.


Fair enough but the NET is here to focus on conversational English. Something I have not seen native Korean teachers able to do well.
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kinship



Joined: 24 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Something I have not seen native Korean teachers able to do well.


Maybe your sample groups is a little small. For me, I have seen good and bad Korean English teachers but I have seen an improvement over the years.

Here is a point to ponder-- if you say that the younger Korean English teachers are not good English teachers then you are saying that we have failed at our jobs and Korea has the right to get rid of us. We are here to improve their English ability (now i will expect the excuses to start)
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinship wrote:
Quote:
Something I have not seen native Korean teachers able to do well.


Here is a point to ponder-- if you say that the younger Korean English teachers are not good English teachers then you are saying that we have failed at our jobs and Korea has the right to get rid of us. We are here to improve their English ability (now i will expect the excuses to start)



Actually, he isn't saying that at all...your logic does fail.
Most posters here have never taught teachers...most teach young children.
Those who have taught in the teacher training programs may have a few things to say as to how effective those programs have been.
However, it does seem likely that you failed at that...as you seem to be projecting your inadequacies onto others.

Point to ponder...not really.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinship wrote:
Quote:
But you're not going to get the same conversational/pronunciation/usage education from a non-native (and generally non-fluent) speaker who spends 99% of their time outside the classroom using a different language.

Yet they have done this and still do this in the west all the time. Why is it okay for the western schools to do this and not the Korean ones?

Hmm.
I had 2 years of beginner's Spanish in high school and that was taught by a native speaker.
So even though Spanish ability wasn't necessary for me to enter University, and even though it was only a beginner-level course... They still had a native speaker teaching it.

Compare that to Korea; where English ability is required for University, where an intermediate-advanced level of English is being taught, and where the target language is much different (in usage and pronunciation) than the native language.
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kinship



Joined: 24 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="The Cosmic Hum"][quote="kinship"]
Quote:



Actually, he isn't saying that at all...your logic does fail.
Most posters here have never taught teachers...most teach young children.
Those who have taught in the teacher training programs may have a few things to say as to how effective those programs have been.
However, it does seem likely that you failed at that...as you seem to be projecting your inadequacies onto others.

Point to ponder...not really.


It is amazing how you do a narrow application of the native teacher program and then use that narrow perspective to twist my words to criticize me.
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daz1979



Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Location: Gangwon-Do

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether Korean teachers can do the job or not is not the reason that jobs are being cut.

Over a short period of time, there has been far too much money pumped into the English education system. Throwing 50,000,000 at schools to open specialist English classrooms, that were never really needed. Teachers of other subjects get little to no budget allocation, all the money has been getting fired into English. It was always going to end badly.

Then you have things like "cultural" trips for NET's to Jeju, Seoul and Dokdo that cause further friction and add to the cost of the programs budget.

Now, they are firefighting the problem. The massive overspending has to stop and more funds must be allocated to other subjects.

Sure, the government states that the Korean Teachers are more than capable of doing the same work. But, it all comes down to budget control more than competence. This is highlighted in the relaxation of visas for India and Philippines and with programs such as EPIK increasing the intake of TALK applicants, rather than EPIK teachers..... They are cheaper.

People say that enrolment for hagwons is decreasing too. But, where I live, I don't see that at all. If anything, the power is going to go back to the hagwons...... Which is not a positive move for the country.


Just my thoughts Smile
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dairyairy



Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The great financial waste was on English villages.
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dairyairy wrote:
The great financial waste was on English villages.

Truth in that. Education offices were handed more money for english than they knew what to do with. Easy expensive fallback & pretty much useless now. I saw that one coming from the get-go. Tides of change. I understand science is the new target for govt largesse now. Science villages?
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Weigookin74



Joined: 26 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daz1979 wrote:
Whether Korean teachers can do the job or not is not the reason that jobs are being cut.

Over a short period of time, there has been far too much money pumped into the English education system. Throwing 50,000,000 at schools to open specialist English classrooms, that were never really needed. Teachers of other subjects get little to no budget allocation, all the money has been getting fired into English. It was always going to end badly.

Then you have things like "cultural" trips for NET's to Jeju, Seoul and Dokdo that cause further friction and add to the cost of the programs budget.

Now, they are firefighting the problem. The massive overspending has to stop and more funds must be allocated to other subjects.

Sure, the government states that the Korean Teachers are more than capable of doing the same work. But, it all comes down to budget control more than competence. This is highlighted in the relaxation of visas for India and Philippines and with programs such as EPIK increasing the intake of TALK applicants, rather than EPIK teachers..... They are cheaper.

People say that enrolment for hagwons is decreasing too. But, where I live, I don't see that at all. If anything, the power is going to go back to the hagwons...... Which is not a positive move for the country.


Just my thoughts Smile


The Indians were originally hired because of a shortage of foriegners in EPIK. This was introduced before the recession. But now there is no shortage. I have met a couple of Indians who told me they have had their visas and contracts non renewed over the year or so. The Indians are being phased out. No cuts in most of EPIK for now. Maybe next year or the next couple of years, who knows? Mostly Seoul and Gyeonggi do getting cut. But even those places have stabilized.
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