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Rock and roll is dead.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pshaw!

I separate r 'n' r into two creative phases: the mid-50's and the mid-60's. In those two peaks, artists explored and pushed the boundaries of the form.

Everything after that has been about weak-to-brilliant interpretations of the various forms, so of a second order. That is not to disparage the artists who work within a form, but that is not the same as creating a form.

The Renaissance only comes along every once in a while. It's unfair to hold everyone to the same high standard of creativity; interpretation is pretty darn awesome.

Is it really dead? I think the future will offer the definitive answer to that. Will the music of mid-20th Century America continue to inspire future generations of musicians to express their ideas in that form, or will they ignore it? Only they can decide if Buddy Holly's 'Rock On' is still relevant to them.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:38 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

hehe...this should totally not be in this forum...but it's fun to see CE people weigh in as opposed to the whole general forum

My position: The Beatles were and are the most amazing rock band ever. Position by position, Led Zappelin trumps them on talent but not overall contribution to what we know as rock. Jack White (1999 onward) might be #3 on this list. The Strokes debut album Is This It? (2001) is also a pristine example of how modern rockers have elevated the form to new heights.

And no form is ever truly dead. The likes of Gershwin and Glass have shown that classical music is still not dead, and consider further bands like Godspeed! You Black Emperor.

As we speak, Black Prairie is reviving bluegrass with Nina Simone sensibilities.

Moving on (or back) though...I'm amazed. I quasi-made friends with Joo Rip Whatever before he departed this board, but visitorq...OMFG.

The Beatles were:
One of the first boy bands that successfully segued into becoming
1) The first studio band (with massive studio innovations in sound as engineered by George Martin)
2)The first world band (Tomorrow Never Knows)
3)The first prog rock band (A Day in the Life)
4) The first punk band (Helter Skelter)
5) an early hard rock band (Revolution)
6) an embodiment of the 60s counterculture

As a reformed Stones-supporter, I urge anyone to listen to the albums and not the greatest hits compilations

There is no filler on Beatles albums (Turd on the Run) Every song, early or late, is swingin' for the fences (OK, maybe not Octopus's Garden, but even that got ripped by Ronnie Milsap).

BUT but bbut butt btut...

It's easy to write off the Beatles without fielding any other music as better. The Stones respect the Beatles, so did Kurt Cobain.

Who, visitorq, do you listen to?
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Music is personal. It truly is. Its not good or bad. Your favorite band, song or era is akin to your favorite color. Your favorite painter. Your favorite food. It just is. Its not right or wrong. Its personal and subjective.

That said, so called 'experts' generally agree on a few things. I respect that some on here do not see the bands of yesteryears as any better than anything out now but it must be said that the vast majority of people as well as industry people and musical historians would strongly disagree with that assessment.

Again, it doesn't make visitorg and those other wrong just in the vast minority view of things.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
Again, it doesn't make visitorg and those other wrong just in the vast minority view of things.


Indeed, but visitorq doesn't understand that about any other argument he makes on this forum. You are a certified boob if you disagree with visitorq. He'll tell you so (or you can go read any thread where he appears).

So I'm still holding out here. If the Beatles (like Abraham Lincoln and WWII) were a sham, I sincerely wanna hear who isn't.

There could be interesting choices like Bob Dylan or Rage Against the Machine, but I'm betting it's either:

Celine Dion or some obscure Scandanavian death metal band.

AND SIRIUS, I'm not saying he's wrong by choosing "My Heart Will Go On" or "Spinobifida Platter". I just want to know what's not commercial pap.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ 10 points to Gryffindor. He certainly has a 'my opinion is fact' stance on things despite evidence otherwise, logic, reasonging, etc. This includes excluding the possibility or validity of other points of view and if you disagree too often even taking the opposite view of you even if he knows he's wrong (I think this may be one of those instances). lol.

That said, although I disagree with him often, I do agree on some things he and many others on here have said (this music debate isn't one of them).
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falco



Joined: 26 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
4) The first punk band (Helter Skelter)

6) an embodiment of the 60s counterculture



Hardly correct to quote Helter Skelter and then call the Beatles the first punk band....lol. Helter Skelter is a punk sounding song (and a great one at that) but people like the Sonics, MC5 and even the Who were making stuff like this before it (Helter Skelter) was even thought of. So first punk band....nope.


The embodiment of 60s counterculture is a tough one. Maybe in England they were viewed by some as carrying the torch for the subculture (though people like the Stones and Pink Floyd etc can probably be said to have a much greater claim to this title) but certainly not in the States where Hendrix, Joplin, Jefferson Airplane and the White Panther houseband the MC5 could all claim to be more legitimate representatives of the hippy culture than the Fab Four. Outside of England the Beatles, although representative of the 60s 'scene' were, I would argue, considered reasonably mainstream by the counterculture of the time itself.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

My closer examination:

Helter Skelter Nov '68
Kick Out the Jam Feb '68
My Generation 1965

OK, let's call Helter Skelter "pioneering" then.

But seriously, I see the MC5 as anything but hippies. They were a prototype for the next phase.

This is not hippy music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XhQRFO4M7A&noredirect=1

Jimi Hendrix, in terms of his rise, might as well be considered British.
HE covered the Beatles (Tomorrow Never Knows)

The Who, like the Stones, have their place,

BUT, the point is this

One band did this one year (the Summer of Love):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lG3nXyI41M

and this the next:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueBUFUWSXHs

Show me anyone who can match that range, especially as a pioneer of a genre.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

falco wrote:
Quote:
4) The first punk band (Helter Skelter)

6) an embodiment of the 60s counterculture



Hardly correct to quote Helter Skelter and then call the Beatles the first punk band....lol. Helter Skelter is a punk sounding song (and a great one at that) but people like the Sonics, MC5 and even the Who were making stuff like this before it (Helter Skelter) was even thought of. So first punk band....nope.


The embodiment of 60s counterculture is a tough one. Maybe in England they were viewed by some as carrying the torch for the subculture (though people like the Stones and Pink Floyd etc can probably be said to have a much greater claim to this title) but certainly not in the States where Hendrix, Joplin, Jefferson Airplane and the White Panther houseband the MC5 could all claim to be more legitimate representatives of the hippy culture than the Fab Four. Outside of England the Beatles, although representative of the 60s 'scene' were, I would argue, considered reasonably mainstream by the counterculture of the time itself.


Good point.

I've always thought of The Stooges "I Wanna Be Your Dog" as the first, or one of the very first, songs that truly embodied the punk ethos (not to mention the quickly played power chords on the guitar, a staple of punk rock). It seems to me that its nihilism and overt sexuality were meant not only to shock but also to serve as a cynical statement on the lovefest that was the hippie movement and how it had become increasingly mainstream. That's very punk.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great rock tunes should go beyond glorifying sex and drugs and have at least a social justice (if not transcendental) message ... http://www.singsnap.com/karaoke/r/beb16b3c2
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falco



Joined: 26 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Show me anyone who can match that range, especially as a pioneer of a genre.


Yeah, no argument from me about most of the points you made, just points no.4 & no.6......lol. Though I dont really know a hell of a lot about prog rock or world music so I cant really comment on points no.2 or no.3.

Some things kinda always irked me a bit about the Beatles though. Harrison's lead guitar playing a lot of times just sounded....off. All You Need Is Love is a good example. His guitar lead on that is just plain horrible. Kindof ruins the song actually. Also McCartney's sappy post-Beatles career seemed to taint all the great tunes he wrote while in the Beatles (ie. The Girl is Mine with M.Jackson.....excruciating Shocked ).


Quote:
But seriously, I see the MC5 as anything but hippies. They were a prototype for the next phase.

This is not hippy music:


Yeah, there was definitely a huge difference between the flower power/Grateful Dead counter-culture of the US west coast and the hard edged/MC5 type counter-culture of the east coast USA. At the time though, people from either camp probably would have been labled 'hippies'.


Quote:
I've always thought of The Stooges "I Wanna Be Your Dog" as the first, or one of the very first, songs that truly embodied the punk ethos


Me too! I've also always loved the Stooges "LA Blues'. A free-jazz number guaranteed to drive everybody else out of the room! Definitely the greatest song never written....lol.
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falco



Joined: 26 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all the '........is dead' topics around here, I thought it was time to resurrect this again Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rock a billy stars pretty much buried real rock and roll. The drugs and drinking, the sexual escapades were too much for the white middle class. jerry Lee lewis married his thirteen year old cousin and that pretty well ended the Rock era. Lewis a murderous pedophile was enormously talented but when he announced to the British press that he had married a child it was too much. combined with John Cash's drug use, Carl Perkins drinking. Elvis was dating a 16 year old. A red eyed Elvis being asked by Steve Allen if he used Marijuana and getting the giggles the very very stoned Elvis could not stop laughing to answer the question
the beatles were clean cut in a way. They were not Southern "poor white trash". They were safe. Also they had a knack for combining folk with the rock sound.

Compare "I LOve you YEa Yea Yea" to 'GREAT BALLs of Fire" or to any of Elvis'recrdings which oozed sex , and sexually suggestive imagery.
Not criticizing the Beatles but they offered a toned down, clean version of Rock
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the beatles were clean cut in a way. They were not Southern "poor white trash". They were safe.


Very Happy

Umm, the first screams heard were not those of teenage girls. The screams were from moms & dads who got their first glimpse of 'that hair'. It took weeks for their eyebrows to settle back down from their--short--hairlines. What was the first thing they did? Head to the school boards to push for rules regulating hair length. This lasted for several years. So 'safe'? Not so much.

JFK was killed Nov. 22, '63. The Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan Feb. 7, '64. This was not a coincidence. Sullivan was a master programer who knew the public was in the mood for a change. I can't recall a band since that has been so heavily marketed...lunch boxes, wigs, pencils... So yes, they were very much a product of commercialism. Then they changed.

Personally, I don't think their music has held up nearly as well as the Stones, but that's just me.
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No_hite_pls wrote:
Darn good post! The Beatles has less talent than the Backstreet Boys IMO. I want to hold your hand, She loves me yeah yeah, please Lady Gaga has more talent. Not that I listen to any of that crap anyways. I am just saying Rolling Stones or the Beatles weren't any better than the crap that is out now.


Really? Not any better?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWuXmfgXVxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5_EBAzIPJM

While I may not be a fan of The Back Street Boys, they are/were quite talented...though don't/didn't write their own music.
The Beatles and Rolling Stones did...there is something to be said for that.
Some of those songs were/are pretty good.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
the beatles were clean cut in a way. They were not Southern "poor white trash". They were safe.




Imagine if they had been. Those nice British gentlemen hung out with prostitutes and strippers and popped pills (Dexedrin and Preludin) while they worked in Germany.


Last edited by 12ax7 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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