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Who had the front row seats? Speak up!
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sojusucks



Joined: 31 May 2008

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Who had the front row seats? Speak up! Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21489927

They're back!
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Dodge7



Joined: 21 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is this tripe? People that don't even know each other getting married? These marriages should last long.... Confused
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a co-worker 4 years ago that married her husband at one of these things in the early 90's. She was a deeply religious moonie that believed that Obama was the anti-christ. She had so many viruses on her computer from the weird sites she would visit. She would always be watching these videos with Obama's picture and fire all around him. She was one of the dumbest people I have ever met and oh god did she smell bad. I don't think she ever took a shower.

Her husband was a poor farmer and just pretended to be a moonie to get a wife. He was always drunk, I actually kind of like him he was always kind to our family dog. She really hated her husband but would never divorce him. ha ha


Last edited by No_hite_pls on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zyzyfer



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No_hite_pls wrote:
She would always be watching these videos with Obama's picture and fire all around him.


I should start doing that. Not because I dislike Obama or anything, I just think it would be cool to play videos of people with fire all around them at work.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dodge7 wrote:
What is this tripe? People that don't even know each other getting married? These marriages should last long.... Confused


Well, the Moonies themselves claim to have a 10% divorce rate. They may be exaggerating -- they are probably exaggerating -- but it would not shock me if Moonie marriages were actually statistically less likely to end in divorce than modern western-style marriages. When you marry for love, your relationship will last until the love runs out (which, for many people, is sooner than they'd otherwise expect). If the foundation of your marriage is instead something more concrete -- whether the expectations of your broader culture, the bond between two families, or religious convictions -- it can endure past that, and once love by itself no longer has the burden of holding your relationship together, it may well actually grow stronger and sounder. I do remember reading an article in Korea some time back that said traditional Korean match-made marriages (which still occur) were less likely to end in divorce than marriages for love.

Professor O'Connell from the article above bemoans, "I find it in fact a violation of the very nature of the marriage bond, which is a free contract between two parties. And it is the freedom of that contract which constitutes a very essential part of the bond," but for much of human history this was not an entirely accurate description of marriage, and in those societies, divorce was less common, family was more stable, and life was about more than just enjoying yourself as much as you could before you died.

I'm no especial fan of religion, so I'm no especial fan of the Moonies, but the last thing Korea (or anyone) needs on the topic of marriage is advice from the divorce-happy West.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
I'm no especial fan of religion, so I'm no especial fan of the Moonies, but the last thing Korea (or anyone) needs on the topic of marriage is advice from the divorce-happy West.

Indeed.
Always amazing to see some of the least happy people on the planet (particularly considering the material wealth said group possesses) telling everyone else how to live a happy life.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said by Fox.

I heard something similar about arranged marriages from South Asian families. The common assumption was that such marriages would be abominable, but they actually had good chances of sticking together. The families knew the kids better than the kids knew themselves. Also it wasn't marrying a complete stranger, the kids often knew each other growing up, and it wasn't completely forced, but rather from a pool of prospective matches.

This same professor stated that there were four or five things that really determined the rate of success for a marriage, I can't remember them precisely, but they amounted to views on the purpose of money, views on the purpose of life, views on religion, views on inter-dependency, and views on parenting and family. If the couple had views in line with each other on those things, they'd be fine.

As Fox alluded to, things like "love" and "interests" and "soulmate" were not a big factor.
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
but they amounted to views on the purpose of money, views on the purpose of life, views on religion, views on inter-dependency, and views on parenting and family.


Most people that are realistic about marriage and find their own spouses look for those exact same things.

I for one, would never go back to the old days of arranged marriages and a society with no divorce. I like that people in the present time are allowed to be happy in marriage and that marriage means more now then just a financial union for the children. Divorce sometimes is the best answer to unhappy often abusive marriage.

There are countries that people can still go to and find that old wonderful non-divorce cultures. Saudi Arabia is country like that for one! I believe it's still illegal for women to get divorced and almost all marriages are still arranged. Gentleman, don't cheat on your wives, though, I believe they stone you to death, for that there.


Last edited by No_hite_pls on Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:57 pm; edited 3 times in total
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No_hite_pls wrote:
Saudi Arabia is country like that for one! I believe it's still illegal for women to get divorced and almost all marriages are still arranged. Gentleman, don't cheat on your wives, though, I believe they stone you to death, for that there.

I'm pretty sure the mistress gets stoned to death and the man goes unpunished, but I could be wrong.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No_hite_pls wrote:

I like that people in the present time are allowed to be happy in marriage ...


As opposed to the rest of history, where happiness in marriage was strictly forbidden.

No_hite_pls wrote:
...and that marriage means more now then just a financial union for the children.


Marriage, something which was once a pillar of society and a bearer of deep cultural meaning, has been reduced to a form of long-term dating in much of the West. To say that stripping all of the commitment, most of the responsibility, and many of the cultural connotations out of the institution has made it more meaningful is almost like engaging in Orwellian Newspeak. Marriage used to be so profoundly meaningful that ancient man used it as a symbolic lens through which to understand certain aspects of the world. Now it's, "Hey, I'll shack up with you until one of us gets sick of it." You can approve of that transition if you want, but to call it more meaningful completely demolishes the descriptive utility of the term.

No_hite_pls wrote:
Divorce sometimes is the best answer to unhappy often abusive marriage.


True, but also a straw man. Many traditional marriage societies have had divorce as a recourse for exceptional circumstances. The major innovation of modern society is the no fault divorce: divorce without a major extenuating factor such as abuse, adultery, or the like. That is what you're championing here: families being torn apart as a matter of casual whim. Modern society has turned divorce into a societal institution in its own right.
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Marriage, something which was once a pillar of society and a bearer of deep cultural meaning, has been reduced to a form of long-term dating in much of the West. Marriage used to be so profoundly meaningful that ancient man used it as a symbolic lens through which to understand certain aspects of the world.


Is this even true? Where did you grow up?

My parents hated each other for years but never got divorced (in the west) they were catholic. My father didn't want to split the families assets and my mother was too weak to get a divorce. Believe me, it wasn't a wonderful family environment even though they stayed together on paper. It wasn't so black and white fox.

I believe people should have the freedom to make there own choices on marriage. I am sorry, but I don't want to go back to the stone ages of arranged marriages.
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No_hite_pls



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zyzyfer wrote:
No_hite_pls wrote:
She would always be watching these videos with Obama's picture and fire all around him.


I should start doing that. Not because I dislike Obama or anything, I just think it would be cool to play videos of people with fire all around them at work.


lol
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No_hite_pls wrote:
Fox wrote:
Marriage, something which was once a pillar of society and a bearer of deep cultural meaning, has been reduced to a form of long-term dating in much of the West. Marriage used to be so profoundly meaningful that ancient man used it as a symbolic lens through which to understand certain aspects of the world.


Is this even true?


Look at mythology from pretty much any part of the world and you'll see that it's true.

No_hite_pls wrote:
My parents hated each other for years but never got divorced (in the west) they were catholic. My father didn't want to split the families assets and my mother was too weak to get a divorce. Believe me, it wasn't a wonderful family environment even though they stayed together on paper. It wasn't so black and white fox.


Of course it's not black and white: people are fallible, and no system is going to work out perfectly on a case-by-case basis. That said, were your mother and father an arranged marriage, or a choice-driven marriage for love? Because you'll notice that what I'm defending first and foremost here is the notion that people aren't always good at choosing their own spouses; that arranged marriages can actually produce superior results at a societal level.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Scandinavia marriage rates are falling, cohabitation without marriage is high. If you were a women, or even a man, what culture is better, Scandinavia or India and the Middle East? Also is it a coincidence that societies with that culture of arranged marriage don't do well on issues of human rights and have higher rates of violence against women than other cultures. You're selling snake oil.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
In Scandinavia marriage rates are falling, cohabitation without marriage is high. If you were a women, or even a man, what culture is better, Scandinavia or India and the Middle East?


Better for what? What is the goal of society?

Leon wrote:
Also is it a coincidence that societies with that culture of arranged marriage don't do well on ...


This is the second time this week you've engaged in this peculiar fallacy of attacking an idea I'm defending by bringing up some perceived correlated phenomena. "Oh Fox, extended family living is terrible because I don't like tribal poverty!" "Oh Fox, consensual arranged marriages are bad because I don't approve of human rights violations and violence against women!" It's tiresome, and it shows how little thought you're even willing to give an idea that isn't a mainstream part of your cultural indoctrination.

I've already said this to you, but you've obviously forgotten it, so I'm going to say it again: I'm not trying to stop you from living your cultural ideals. Live them, and live with the consequences of them, that's fine with me. But to accuse me of selling snake oil? No, I'm just defending people who want something more out of life than 80 or so years of bland hedonism followed by death in a nursing home. I'm defending people who don't want to be you. I'm sorry if that upsets you.
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