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Sexual Economics, Culture, Men, and Modern Sexual Trends
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GF



Joined: 26 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we keep quiet, the terrorists - sorry, feminists win.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GF wrote:
If we keep quiet, the terrorists - sorry, feminists win.


If you don't keep quiet, they win too. Consider this entire affair from a feminist perspective. A man getting fired for telling a few slightly sexual puns is a clear victory, and a woman being "martyred" for the cause is also a victory because it can be twisted to serve the narrative of patriarchal "oppression." Your terrorism joke was apt: feminists are essentially cultural suicide bombers, completely willing to undermine their own interests in order to act for the cause. You don't engage a suicide bomber in a fist fight if you can avoid it, right? Making a sexual joke in front of a feminist zealot is the cultural equivalent: you will lose, and she will win, because her victory conditions are irrational and yours aren't.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People acting like obnoxious frat boys while representing their company at a professional event get fired, yes the country is doomed. It's not clear to me this is about sexism as much as professionalism, but if anyone has any proof otherwise I'm open to changing my opinion.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obnoxious frat boys, and computer geeks acting like obnoxious frat boys, have created everything of any use on earth. All men. Women like Adria Richards contribute nothing to our species. Nothing. Zero.

Here's her job description:

Quote:
Adria empowers people through technology and helps clients reach their business goals with a geeky twist.

Adria has presented at several conferences including SXSW, Blogworld, BlogHer, Blogalicous, Wordcamps around the country and several private events. Topics range from blogging, and SEO to career strategies in the tech market and the influence of science fiction on modern inventions. Adria does training on a variety of Cloud computing tools, Google Apps, Joomla, WordPress and business workflow.


Ha. She does trainings on Wordpress and Google Apps. Or at least she did!

Men acting like men, for all the good and bad (and distasteful jokes are part of the 'good') produce. Best let them be and Arida can make them sandwiches.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Obnoxious frat boys, and computer geeks acting like obnoxious frat boys, have created everything of any use on earth. All men. Women like Adria Richards contribute nothing to our species. Nothing. Zero.

Here's her job description:

Quote:
Adria empowers people through technology and helps clients reach their business goals with a geeky twist.

Adria has presented at several conferences including SXSW, Blogworld, BlogHer, Blogalicous, Wordcamps around the country and several private events. Topics range from blogging, and SEO to career strategies in the tech market and the influence of science fiction on modern inventions. Adria does training on a variety of Cloud computing tools, Google Apps, Joomla, WordPress and business workflow.


Ha. She does trainings on Wordpress and Google Apps. Or at least she did!

Men acting like men, for all the good and bad (and distasteful jokes are part of the 'good') produce. Best let them be and Arida can make them sandwiches.


That may be, at least in her specific case, but she wasn't the one to fire the two men. I don't think the men should have been fired, but it seems like she only played a small role in the whole thing, if anything blame the men's boss. I don't mind distasteful jokes, but puns reflect badly on everyone.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Forbes: Why Asking What Adria Richards Could Have Done Differently Is The Wrong Question

Quote:
What could Adria have done differently to not bring the firestorm down onto her?

Does this sound like anything thing else we hear in our culture when women do something “wrong” and are punished for it?

Is it possible that by asking this question, that we’re digitally asking if maybe Adria shouldn’t have been drinking or wearing that short skirt, shouldn’t have been walking home from the subway stop by herself, shouldn’t have walked by that proverbial construction site where she knew she was going to get catcalled and harassed?


My favorite bit:

Quote:
Look at the picture. It’s a room full of almost entire white men. Is it possible that this is not an entirely safe environment for a woman to confront a group of men?


Yes, please do look at the picture. It's a room full of people so obviously socially awkward that nearly any woman looking in their direction would leave them quaking in their sneakers. Intimidating indeed.

Leon wrote:
People acting like obnoxious frat boys[...]


Why are you reaching for another stereotype when the most appropriate one is staring you in the face? They're computer geeks at a conference designed by and for computer geeks. Why would you expect them to act in any other way?

Titus wrote:
Obnoxious frat boys, and computer geeks acting like obnoxious frat boys, have created everything of any use on earth.


Only half of that approaches truth. Every single obnoxious frat boy I've ever encountered has been a business major. Every. Single. One. Not exactly the definition of useful.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
From Forbes: Why Asking What Adria Richards Could Have Done Differently Is The Wrong Question

Quote:
What could Adria have done differently to not bring the firestorm down onto her?

Does this sound like anything thing else we hear in our culture when women do something “wrong” and are punished for it?

Is it possible that by asking this question, that we’re digitally asking if maybe Adria shouldn’t have been drinking or wearing that short skirt, shouldn’t have been walking home from the subway stop by herself, shouldn’t have walked by that proverbial construction site where she knew she was going to get catcalled and harassed?


My favorite bit:

Quote:
Look at the picture. It’s a room full of almost entire white men. Is it possible that this is not an entirely safe environment for a woman to confront a group of men?


Yes, please do look at the picture. It's a room full of people so obviously socially awkward that nearly any woman looking in their direction would leave them quaking in their sneakers. Intimidating indeed.

Leon wrote:
People acting like obnoxious frat boys[...]


Why are you reaching for another stereotype when the most appropriate one is staring you in the face? They're computer geeks at a conference designed by and for computer geeks. Why would you expect them to act in any other way?

Titus wrote:
Obnoxious frat boys, and computer geeks acting like obnoxious frat boys, have created everything of any use on earth.


Only half of that approaches truth. Every single obnoxious frat boy I've ever encountered has been a business major. Every. Single. One. Not exactly the definition of useful.


I know lots of frat boys, but very few computer geeks, so I go with what I know.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
From Forbes: Why Asking What Adria Richards Could Have Done Differently Is The Wrong Question


It is the wrong question, because the real question we should be asking is: "How can we rearrange our society so people like Adria Richards are unable to instigate a chain of events that leads to otherwise productive family men being fired over a joke?" How do we disarm the cultural suicide bomber?
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's face it: men are afraid of women.

This is what "this" is all about.

Women are dangerous and scary and men need to protect themselves from women...or else the whole civilization will collapse.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That said I am sympathetic to the men who lost their jobs, "just because they told a joke/jokes."

But, I am sympathetic to most criminals. Many criminal acts are just like that. You are walking down the street, never have done anything wrong before - certainly not enough to get into serious legal trouble - and bam(!), you make a poor judgement - a criminal act - and your whole life is ruined.

We really should be more sympathetic. But, most people are not. People cannot be both criminal and victim. And, if you show any sympathy to the perpetrator of a crime, you are somehow disrespectful to the victim of the crime.

What we need to do is starting writing laws with the possibility that it could be us or a family member who will someday commit this crime.

We need to lessen penalties and give more chances for redemption.

We need to be more understanding and sympathetic to all members of society.

We are all after all "human and fail-able."

We need to start caring about other people in society besides ourselves.

But, I doubt that will happen.

And, I am sure there will be viscous people out there out for blood, some of them women, out for revenge. They might even be other minority groups. Some of them might even be poor or under-educated or under-employed. And, we probably won't understand their rage, will we?

Life will go on...
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Let's face it: men are afraid of women.


Any criticism of women and the idiocy of modern-day feminism will inevitably be met with the old 'you're just afraid/intimidated by women' trope.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Let's face it: men are afraid of women.

This is what "this" is all about.


Women infecting male-created organization with their demands for "safe environments" (which evidently amounts to "environments in which no one says anything which might annoy me or hurt my feelings"), to the extent that they are outright inducing the termination of employment of productive males, is about men being afraid of women?

Unposter wrote:
That said I am sympathetic to the men who lost their jobs, "just because they told a joke/jokes."

But, I am sympathetic to most criminals.


So now men telling jokes is comparable to being criminal?

Is this irony?
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is comparable to a criminal act in that they did something wrong and socially unacceptable.

And, I don't think they wouldn't have been fired if their boss and their company wasn't afraid of women, either in the work place or as clients and customers.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Yes, it is comparable to a criminal act in that they did something wrong and socially unacceptable.


Maybe socially unacceptable, but not wrong. Telling jokes isn't wrong. It simply is not. Society is not kindergarten, or at least, it ought not to be such.

Unposter wrote:
And, I don't think they wouldn't have been fired if their boss and their company wasn't afraid of women, either in the work place or as clients and customers.


1) Being afraid of customer backlash isn't the same as being afraid of women.

2) The woman who shamed the men in public was also fired, explicitly because her behavior impeded her interaction with male programmers, so why didn't you say, "Let's face it: men are afraid of men?" Rhetorical question of course, since bigverne already provided the answer.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jokes can be wrong.

At one time, it was common sense that one does not tell "off-color" jokes in front of a "lady."

And, if you have ever been picked on, or if you have ever seen a movie about a person being picked on, you might understand that sometimes people are laughing with you and sometimes they are laughing at you.

Such jokes are a verbal attack on someone; it is designed to assert one's dominance over another person.

It may be verbal but it is still an assault in that manner.

Also, what these men did was not criminal but it was a transgression. They broke the rules just like a crime. We live in a society which punishes all sorts of behavior. We are not interested in helping others; we are interested in cutting others down so we can assert our advantage.

Those men where in a competitive environment and they blew it.

Now, I really am sympathetic. Those are not environments that I like. But, I am not surprised they were fired. It seems pretty common in the competitive work environments we have created.

My guess is that there is more to this situation. These men broke some rule or lost out in some kind of power struggle. They were fired for other reasons than just telling a "joke." But, if they were fired for "merely" telling a joke, I would be as appalled as you are. But, I am guessing its not.

I'm no lawyer but if it were the case, I think they have good grounds for wrongful dismissal, not that that should be any solace to the men. And, if they did not pursue such a case, well, what can I say? And, if a court can't find for them, then there is probably more to this case than just a joke.

People of different sexes, personalities and cultures have to work together. Ones ability to navigate those waters are critical to businesses. People who make work environments, of any sex, personality or culture, who make work environments difficult, even by telling jokes, will not last in that workplace long.
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