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Ariel Sharon is dead

 
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:10 am    Post subject: Ariel Sharon is dead Reply with quote

Quote:
Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the trailblazing warrior-statesman who transformed the region and was reviled by Arab foes over generations of conflict, died on Saturday at 85 eight years after suffering a massive stroke.

Sharon left major historical footprints on the Middle East through military invasion, Jewish settlement-building on occupied land the Palestinians seek for a state but also a shock, unilateral decision to withdraw from the Gaza Strip.



Obviously a highly contentious figure. Most of you who have read my comments on the middle east over the years can probably surmise that I was not a fan.

Quote:
He was widely despised by Arabs over the 1982 massacre by Israeli-allied, Lebanese Christian militiamen of hundreds of Palestinian refugees in Beirut.

An Israeli state inquiry found Sharon, who as defense minister engineered Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon and war against Palestinian guerrillas there, indirectly responsible for the killings, and he was forced to resign his post.



I'll always associate him most closely with those massacres at Sabra and Shatila. I suppose he did take more moderate positions later on as Prime Minister.

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I'm With You



Joined: 01 Sep 2011

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand,

I notice you like saying people are dead.
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Ariel Sharon is dead Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
Quote:
Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the trailblazing warrior-statesman who transformed the region and was reviled by Arab foes over generations of conflict, died on Saturday at 85 eight years after suffering a massive stroke.

Sharon left major historical footprints on the Middle East through military invasion, Jewish settlement-building on occupied land the Palestinians seek for a state but also a shock, unilateral decision to withdraw from the Gaza Strip.



Obviously a highly contentious figure. Most of you who have read my comments on the middle east over the years can probably surmise that I was not a fan.

Quote:
He was widely despised by Arabs over the 1982 massacre by Israeli-allied, Lebanese Christian militiamen of hundreds of Palestinian refugees in Beirut.

An Israeli state inquiry found Sharon, who as defense minister engineered Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon and war against Palestinian guerrillas there, indirectly responsible for the killings, and he was forced to resign his post.



I'll always associate him most closely with those massacres at Sabra and Shatila. I suppose he did take more moderate positions later on as Prime Minister.

link


It is hard to definitively say that Sharon took more moderate positions.
It depends on how you define that. He withdrew from Gaza not because he was interested in peace. He started agreeing with some people more to the "Left" of him in terms of possible dangers to Israel in the future.
An Israel with Gaza under its control would soon be a state with a Jewish minority controlling an Arab majority. Also, Sharon's adviser said the government wanted to freeze the peace process. Now, he may have been willing to withdraw from certain parts of the West Bank to be away from the Arab population centers. Netanyahu, on the other hand, is too beholden to settlers and is not so keen on withdrawals.
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RangerMcGreggor



Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Ariel Sharon is dead Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:

It is hard to definitively say that Sharon took more moderate positions.
It depends on how you define that. He withdrew from Gaza not because he was interested in peace. He started agreeing with some people more to the "Left" of him in terms of possible dangers to Israel in the future.
An Israel with Gaza under its control would soon be a state with a Jewish minority controlling an Arab majority. Also, Sharon's adviser said the government wanted to freeze the peace process. Now, he may have been willing to withdraw from certain parts of the West Bank to be away from the Arab population centers. Netanyahu, on the other hand, is too beholden to settlers and is not so keen on withdrawals.


From my understanding, the reason was purely pragmatic and military related and not because he felt like giving the Palestinians a bone. The areas he withdrew were areas that were a nightmare to occupy and was essentially cutting their loses.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Ariel Sharon is dead Reply with quote

RangerMcGreggor wrote:
Adventurer wrote:

It is hard to definitively say that Sharon took more moderate positions.
It depends on how you define that. He withdrew from Gaza not because he was interested in peace. He started agreeing with some people more to the "Left" of him in terms of possible dangers to Israel in the future.
An Israel with Gaza under its control would soon be a state with a Jewish minority controlling an Arab majority. Also, Sharon's adviser said the government wanted to freeze the peace process. Now, he may have been willing to withdraw from certain parts of the West Bank to be away from the Arab population centers. Netanyahu, on the other hand, is too beholden to settlers and is not so keen on withdrawals.


From my understanding, the reason was purely pragmatic and military related and not because he felt like giving the Palestinians a bone. The areas he withdrew were areas that were a nightmare to occupy and was essentially cutting their loses.


Yes. For the record, I wasn't trying ti imply that Sharon was motivated by humanitarian considerations in carrying out the withdrawal. It can usually be assumed politicians are going by realpolitik.

However, in those situations, there are usually diehards who won't endorse the moderate position even for reasons of national self-interest. For example, the right-wing French army officers who tried to kill De Gaulle to keep France in Algeria. Or, going by Adventurer's description above, Netanyahu.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always learn a lot from these threads when political leaders pass.
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