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Ukraine and the Crimean War
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:34 am    Post subject: Ukraine and the Crimean War Reply with quote

This thread may go nowhere, but I just watched this documentary on youtuber and I found it interesting, especially in light of recent events. Quite long and Ken Burn-ish, but worthwhile IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AELyJnz23E0

Comments about the current state of affairs in the Ukraine, or the doc itself, are welcome.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its kind of irritating to see Chuck Hagel warning Moscow not to make any false moves. The obvious way the US is trying to push their influence into even Russias back door does not bode well.

Crimea is a former part of Russia that still sees itself as Russian-oriented. Yes its nominally a part of Ukraine but the Kremlin is in its right to make moves into that territory.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Russia does not have the right to move into that territory and play the USSR again. Already there are reports of what appear to be Russian troops taking over Ukrainian airports. Ukraine shouldn't be turned into a game of geopolitics, but allowed to sort this out themselves. Should and will are to different things, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking Putin has benign notions about this.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
No, Russia does not have the right to move into that territory and play the USSR again.


The "right"? Who is going to stop them?

Quote:
but lets not kid ourselves into thinking Putin has benign notions about this.


Who would think he does?

The NYT is surprisingly honest here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/26/opinion/has-the-west-already-lost-ukraine.html?hp&rref=opinion
Quote:
The West is in a losing position because it can neither reward nor punish. Despite its accumulated wealth, it is not ready to make sacrifices. Within Western societies, economic solidarity is collapsing. Mobilization in favor of other nations is limited to empty words and gestures. In effect, the West is unable to outbid the financial capacity of autocratic Russia or China, even though they are poorer than the European Union or the United States.


America can not do jack and or shit to stop Russia.

The Soaring Speeches and Uplifting Rhetoric that lulls Americans into comas will not work on Russians as they have already taken American values up the arse good and hard. Some background:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-rape-of-russia-explained-by-anne.html

xxxx

As America declines in power there will be multitudes of crackups and small conflicts as a multi-polar system is established. I was watching an interview with some guy on British tv the other night and he made the point that Libya may well be the last triumph of American hegemony. The last state completely smashed for Freedom. Let us dream.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
No, Russia does not have the right to move into that territory


Crimea is somewhat different to Ukraine.

It was part of Russia until 1954.

It is currently an autonomous territory.

It has a Russian ethnic majority.

It also has a pro-Russian parliament.. which at the moment has the Russian flag flying over it.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:
No, Russia does not have the right to move into that territory


Crimea is somewhat different to Ukraine.

It was part of Russia until 1954.

It is currently an autonomous territory.

It has a Russian ethnic majority.

It also has a pro-Russian parliament.. which at the moment has the Russian flag flying over it.


I assume they'll have a vote and it will be close but in line with a pro-Russian outcome.

The USA/NED/CIA/KSA will funnel cash to the Tartar's to try and start a jihad against Russia in Crimea. The Russians will crush it. Obama will give a speech about human rights and the huffpo/slate/salon/etc hive will have their panties in a knot until the first MLB gay is announced and they'll move on.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Leon wrote:
No, Russia does not have the right to move into that territory and play the USSR again.


The "right"? Who is going to stop them?


Well, if you had read a bit further you would have seen where I said should and will are different things.

Titus wrote:
Quote:
but lets not kid ourselves into thinking Putin has benign notions about this.


Who would think he does?

The NYT is surprisingly honest here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/26/opinion/has-the-west-already-lost-ukraine.html?hp&rref=opinion
Quote:
The West is in a losing position because it can neither reward nor punish. Despite its accumulated wealth, it is not ready to make sacrifices. Within Western societies, economic solidarity is collapsing. Mobilization in favor of other nations is limited to empty words and gestures. In effect, the West is unable to outbid the financial capacity of autocratic Russia or China, even though they are poorer than the European Union or the United States.


America can not do jack and or shit to stop Russia.


Perhaps they remember what it was like to be part of the USSR. It is not a simple dichotomy of pro west anti Russia.

Titus wrote:
The Soaring Speeches and Uplifting Rhetoric that lulls Americans into comas will not work on Russians as they have already taken American values up the arse good and hard. Some background:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-rape-of-russia-explained-by-anne.html

xxxx

As America declines in power there will be multitudes of crackups and small conflicts as a multi-polar system is established. I was watching an interview with some guy on British tv the other night and he made the point that Libya may well be the last triumph of American hegemony. The last state completely smashed for Freedom. Let us dream.


If you want to talk declines, Russia has declined far more precipitously. Also, the failure of post-soviet Russia has more to do with deep, long term, corruption within Russia itself than the West. The west isn't blameless, but come on, lets be honest.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Leon wrote:
No, Russia does not have the right to move into that territory


Crimea is somewhat different to Ukraine.

It was part of Russia until 1954.

It is currently an autonomous territory.

It has a Russian ethnic majority.

It also has a pro-Russian parliament.. which at the moment has the Russian flag flying over it.


If they chose to be more closely aligned to Russia that is different than a power grab by Russia sending in troops.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps they remember what it was like to be part of the USSR. It is not a simple dichotomy of pro west anti Russia.


The USSR is gone. The West is disgusting. America is an autistic gorilla. I'll comfortably sit in the pro-Russia camp.

Quote:
If you want to talk declines, Russia has declined far more precipitously.


Yes, it has. This decline was almost entirely due to looting by - or facilitated by Americans. Russia is on the upswing and America on her way into the toilet.

Quote:
Also, the failure of post-soviet Russia has more to do with deep, long term, corruption within Russia itself than the West.


I encourage you to read Anne Williamson's testimony. Pay attention to the names involved (Summers, Rubin, Fischer etc). They're all still around.

The same people who corrupted Russia are now corrupting USA. I do not understand how this fact is not the primary focus point for Americans.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps they remember what it was like to be part of the USSR. It is not a simple dichotomy of pro west anti Russia.


The USSR is gone. The West is disgusting. America is an autistic gorilla. I'll comfortably sit in the pro-Russia camp.


Yes the USSR is gone, now there is the Eurasian union. Yes the USSR is gone, but is ruled by ex-KGb, etc.

Titus wrote:
Quote:
If you want to talk declines, Russia has declined far more precipitously.


Yes, it has. This decline was almost entirely due to looting by - or facilitated by Americans. Russia is on the upswing and America on her way into the toilet.


Have you read Comrade Criminal? You are not giving ex-communist officials enough agency/credit.

Titus wrote:
Quote:
Also, the failure of post-soviet Russia has more to do with deep, long term, corruption within Russia itself than the West.


I encourage you to read Anne Williamson's testimony. Pay attention to the names involved (Summers, Rubin, Fischer etc). They're all still around.

The same people who corrupted Russia are now corrupting USA. I do not understand how this fact is not the primary focus point for Americans.


Yes, these people were not helpful. No these people did not create the corrupt oligarchs/ex party officials who took over the economic system, and are still in place. It's not nearly as one sided as you are trying to make it. Be honest.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No these people did not create the corrupt oligarchs/ex party officials who took over the economic system,


Yes, they did. Primarily through the use of Jewish ethnic networks based in Harvard and State. Completely true story.

Quote:
and are still in place.


The who/whom of the Russian establishment has changed during the Putin years. This is why media in America are so hot and bothered. How f'ing dare Russians demand they control Russia. The nation was destroyed and they expect it to stay destroyed.

Quote:
It's not nearly as one sided as you are trying to make it.


The post-Soviet looting was entirely one-sided. Putin and his elite are not perfect but they're a major improvement.

I encourage you to read the testimony. And this: http://www.thenation.com/article/harvard-boys-do-russia

Putin's rise in Russia should serve as an inspiration to Americans. It is possible to restrain the power of the oligarchs. It is possible to claw back stolen wealth. It is possible to punish economic terrorists.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poor Russians, so weak that they could not control their own country because of the west and the Jews. Are you going to next tell me how the corruption of the Soviet Union was the west's fault as well? That the same corrupt players that were already there, were already in control, had no power in their own country?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so weak that they could not control their own country because of the west and the Jews.


Jewish ethnic networks based in the West directed the flow of Soviet assets. You deny the this?

Quote:
Are you going to next tell me how the corruption of the Soviet Union was the west's fault as well?


No.

Quote:
That the same corrupt players that were already there, were already in control, had no power in their own country?


The dissolution of the Soviet resulted in the looting of Russia. This is an established point of fact. This looting was directed from Harvard, State and the IMF. Point of fact. You can snark like an American college girl but it is true. Yeltsin was passed out drunk under his desk and his #1 & #2 Vladimir Gusinsky and Boris Berezovsky, conspired with Summers, Rubin, Rothschild and others to steal everything in sight. Fact.

Berezovsky is actually the fellow who hand-picked Putin to be the neo-con half of the show. Remember? http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=227021

Ethnic conflict/competition is real, powerful and not going away.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
had no power in their own country


Aren't you a white American? You should know about a majority ethnic group having no power in their own country. Did white Americans have sufficient power to stop the looting of America?

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/3/29/saupload_committee_to_save_the_world_303x400.jpg

Same people involved. How can you not understand what happened?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10666893/Ukraine-crisis-live-Russia-admits-its-troops-are-moving-in-Crimea.html

Quote:
Russia admits its troops are moving in Crimea

Russian foreign ministry admits to entering Crimea from its Black Sea Fleet base as the Ukraine's interior minister accuses country of 'armed invasion'

17.35 All aircraft movements at Sevastopol's Belbek airfield are stopped after unidentified individuals seized the runway, a according to the Interfax-Ukraine news agency

17.06 Russia has just said it will give Russian passports to members of Ukraine's Berkut - the disbanded riot police.

16.57 A video has emerged purporting to show 12 Russian-combat helicopters (MI-24 & MI-8 3) flying over Sevastopol in Crimea.


The Duma is also preparing legislation that will make it easier for a foreign country to join the Russian Federation.
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