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The #1 song in Korea right now
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Jongno2bucheon



Joined: 11 Mar 2014

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthquakez wrote:
Jongno2bucheon wrote:
Mix1 wrote:
Korea... usually just copies a lot more obviously and tries to pawn it off as it's own thing. It's been a general pattern for quite some time.


I know. It reminds me of the European renaissance copying from Asia and the middle east and passing it off as its own. I,e, calculus, philosophy, food, Guttenburg Press, etc...


More Korean pseudo 'analysis'. What a joke, you don't even know the basics about the Renaissance. The Renaissance came from mostly the influence of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, mathematicians, political thinkers etc.

Arabic mathematics preserved the knowledge of the Greeks and others - it was not the origin. The Byzantine Empire which was the Roman Empire in the East and heavily Greek influenced had art, architecture etc that was also a source of influence for the Renaissance.

You are incredibly confused but I am not surprised given your childish posts on here and your Korean ultra nationalism.

The Greeks were about as influenced by Asian cultures such as those of the Persians as much as the Koreans invented the steam engine, flying machines, electricity, the internet and so on. China certainly invented the process of printing through moveable type followed by Japan. Guttenburg developed that to invent the foreunner of modern printing machines.

The magnificent architecture of cathedrals like Notre Dame in Paris pre-dated the magnificent architecture of the Renaissance and it actually was built during the so called 'Dark Ages'. Likewise the magnificent cathedrals and abbeys of England pre-date the Renaissance just like many all over Europe.

Its construction is still wondered over by architects, especially the stained glass windows. China's, Japan's and Korea's wooden buildings aren't a patch on European architecture and construction, ancient, middle age era or modern. Nor have the East Asian countries produced anything like India's Taj Mahal, or Angkor Watt etc.

As for Asian philosophy supposedly influencing the European movements away from autocracies and despots - what a moron to say that. They were based on solid knowledge of the Greek and Roman classics and developed ideas about human rights that the conservative Asian philosophers never did. Oh yeah, the Ionians who lived on islands around ancient Greece were responsible for much of the mathematical and scientific theories' beginnings.

China stopped developing and isolated itself for centuries just like Korea did and to a lesser extent Japan. Korea woke up to find itself backwards, poor and desperately seeking protection from a weak China and then tried to run to Russia through King Gojong who had been as out of touch with the real world as you apparently are today.

We are well aware that Koreans always have and always will be stung by the historical fact that they invented nothing - and no, they did not invent underfloor heating much as I like the ondol. The Etruscans from what is now modern Tuscany in Italy and others did that before Koreans.


Oh, its bc of genghis khan. He ravaged europe in 1200s... Euros were like what the heck just happened. Marco polo, go east and do some reconaissance.. Copy copy etc... Bring back. Repackage and call it your own to win the admiration of your friends.

Its well established that the renaissance was started by the shock of genghis khans annihilation of european armies, even though they were outnumbered 100 to one. Genghis was the real 300. That shock led to europe sending thousands of explorers to the middle east and asia. Much like japanese students going to school the us in the late 1800s.

Guttenburg "inventing" the movable metal type is about as funny as a
Gore inventing the internet. LOL
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cabeza



Joined: 29 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jongno2bucheon wrote:
earthquakez wrote:
Jongno2bucheon wrote:
Mix1 wrote:
Korea... usually just copies a lot more obviously and tries to pawn it off as it's own thing. It's been a general pattern for quite some time.


I know. It reminds me of the European renaissance copying from Asia and the middle east and passing it off as its own. I,e, calculus, philosophy, food, Guttenburg Press, etc...


More Korean pseudo 'analysis'. What a joke, you don't even know the basics about the Renaissance. The Renaissance came from mostly the influence of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, mathematicians, political thinkers etc.

Arabic mathematics preserved the knowledge of the Greeks and others - it was not the origin. The Byzantine Empire which was the Roman Empire in the East and heavily Greek influenced had art, architecture etc that was also a source of influence for the Renaissance.

You are incredibly confused but I am not surprised given your childish posts on here and your Korean ultra nationalism.

The Greeks were about as influenced by Asian cultures such as those of the Persians as much as the Koreans invented the steam engine, flying machines, electricity, the internet and so on. China certainly invented the process of printing through moveable type followed by Japan. Guttenburg developed that to invent the foreunner of modern printing machines.

The magnificent architecture of cathedrals like Notre Dame in Paris pre-dated the magnificent architecture of the Renaissance and it actually was built during the so called 'Dark Ages'. Likewise the magnificent cathedrals and abbeys of England pre-date the Renaissance just like many all over Europe.

Its construction is still wondered over by architects, especially the stained glass windows. China's, Japan's and Korea's wooden buildings aren't a patch on European architecture and construction, ancient, middle age era or modern. Nor have the East Asian countries produced anything like India's Taj Mahal, or Angkor Watt etc.

As for Asian philosophy supposedly influencing the European movements away from autocracies and despots - what a moron to say that. They were based on solid knowledge of the Greek and Roman classics and developed ideas about human rights that the conservative Asian philosophers never did. Oh yeah, the Ionians who lived on islands around ancient Greece were responsible for much of the mathematical and scientific theories' beginnings.

China stopped developing and isolated itself for centuries just like Korea did and to a lesser extent Japan. Korea woke up to find itself backwards, poor and desperately seeking protection from a weak China and then tried to run to Russia through King Gojong who had been as out of touch with the real world as you apparently are today.

We are well aware that Koreans always have and always will be stung by the historical fact that they invented nothing - and no, they did not invent underfloor heating much as I like the ondol. The Etruscans from what is now modern Tuscany in Italy and others did that before Koreans.


Oh, its bc of genghis khan. He ravaged europe in 1200s... Euros were like what the heck just happened. Marco polo, go east and do some reconaissance.. Copy copy etc... Bring back. Repackage and call it your own to win the admiration of your friends.

Its well established that the renaissance was started by the shock of genghis khans annihilation of european armies, even though they were outnumbered 100 to one. Genghis was the real 300. That shock led to europe sending thousands of explorers to the middle east and asia. Much like japanese students going to school the us in the late 1800s.

Guttenburg "inventing" the movable metal type is about as funny as a
Gore inventing the internet. LOL


Why do you get hurt by people saying bad things about Korea?
Just don't read the board if it bothers you so much.

Infact here is a place you would really fit in: www.koreansentry.com/forum
or as I call it the bitter gyopo circle jerk. They hate gay people and jews like you too.
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SeoulNate



Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cabeza wrote:


Infact here is a place you would really fit in: www.koreansentry.com/forum
or as I call it the bitter gyopo circle jerk. They hate gay people and jews like you too.


Its too hard to hold on to an account there though... I've been banned like 5 times now IIRC. The trolling is too much fun =/
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Mix1



Joined: 08 May 2007

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cabeza wrote:
Jongno2bucheon wrote:
earthquakez wrote:
Jongno2bucheon wrote:
Mix1 wrote:
Korea... usually just copies a lot more obviously and tries to pawn it off as it's own thing. It's been a general pattern for quite some time.


I know. It reminds me of the European renaissance copying from Asia and the middle east and passing it off as its own. I,e, calculus, philosophy, food, Guttenburg Press, etc...


More Korean pseudo 'analysis'. What a joke, you don't even know the basics about the Renaissance. The Renaissance came from mostly the influence of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, mathematicians, political thinkers etc.

Arabic mathematics preserved the knowledge of the Greeks and others - it was not the origin. The Byzantine Empire which was the Roman Empire in the East and heavily Greek influenced had art, architecture etc that was also a source of influence for the Renaissance.

You are incredibly confused but I am not surprised given your childish posts on here and your Korean ultra nationalism.

The Greeks were about as influenced by Asian cultures such as those of the Persians as much as the Koreans invented the steam engine, flying machines, electricity, the internet and so on. China certainly invented the process of printing through moveable type followed by Japan. Guttenburg developed that to invent the foreunner of modern printing machines.

The magnificent architecture of cathedrals like Notre Dame in Paris pre-dated the magnificent architecture of the Renaissance and it actually was built during the so called 'Dark Ages'. Likewise the magnificent cathedrals and abbeys of England pre-date the Renaissance just like many all over Europe.

Its construction is still wondered over by architects, especially the stained glass windows. China's, Japan's and Korea's wooden buildings aren't a patch on European architecture and construction, ancient, middle age era or modern. Nor have the East Asian countries produced anything like India's Taj Mahal, or Angkor Watt etc.

As for Asian philosophy supposedly influencing the European movements away from autocracies and despots - what a moron to say that. They were based on solid knowledge of the Greek and Roman classics and developed ideas about human rights that the conservative Asian philosophers never did. Oh yeah, the Ionians who lived on islands around ancient Greece were responsible for much of the mathematical and scientific theories' beginnings.

China stopped developing and isolated itself for centuries just like Korea did and to a lesser extent Japan. Korea woke up to find itself backwards, poor and desperately seeking protection from a weak China and then tried to run to Russia through King Gojong who had been as out of touch with the real world as you apparently are today.

We are well aware that Koreans always have and always will be stung by the historical fact that they invented nothing - and no, they did not invent underfloor heating much as I like the ondol. The Etruscans from what is now modern Tuscany in Italy and others did that before Koreans.


Oh, its bc of genghis khan. He ravaged europe in 1200s... Euros were like what the heck just happened. Marco polo, go east and do some reconaissance.. Copy copy etc... Bring back. Repackage and call it your own to win the admiration of your friends.

Its well established that the renaissance was started by the shock of genghis khans annihilation of european armies, even though they were outnumbered 100 to one. Genghis was the real 300. That shock led to europe sending thousands of explorers to the middle east and asia. Much like japanese students going to school the us in the late 1800s.

Guttenburg "inventing" the movable metal type is about as funny as a
Gore inventing the internet. LOL


Why do you get hurt by people saying bad things about Korea?
Just don't read the board if it bothers you so much.

Infact here is a place you would really fit in: www.koreansentry.com/forum
or as I call it the bitter gyopo circle jerk. They hate gay people and jews like you too.

Jongno2bucheon is a gay jew? Interesting.

But that might be a great site for him. Maybe he could start a "Ghengis Khan invented K-pop and I hate white people" thread. That would be a massive circle jerk for sure. The historical slants would go over well there too, as long as it slants the proper way.
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Mix1



Joined: 08 May 2007

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
So anyone wish to offer up their detailed history of KPop and the scene and how it came about? I mean you guys all claim to be such experts and how its copied and why they do that style of music and all...

Enlighten us, oh wise one.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mix1 wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
So anyone wish to offer up their detailed history of KPop and the scene and how it came about? I mean you guys all claim to be such experts and how its copied and why they do that style of music and all...

Enlighten us, oh wise one.


Nah, waiting for you guys. You're the experts.
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Mix1



Joined: 08 May 2007

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Isn't like, 95% of European-American music today based off of what some black people in America and Jamaica did?

No, not 95%... a large percent though. Yes, black music has a tremendous influence on current music, especially in terms of rhythm. And most of those black people were AMERICAN musicians. I give credit where it is due and that in no way dilutes my previous points that K-pop is a largely a series of blatant copies.

Let's look at the difference between "based off" or "influenced by" vs. COPYING:

Copying is what Vanilla Ice did.
K-pop is reminiscent of Vanilla Ice but on a massive scale.
It's very hard to take a lot of it seriously or call it original.
You have the same sound and costumes but a weaker facsimile of the original, which doesn't interest most listeners who have heard the originals first. At most, it has a slightly different flavor, and its in another language, but that's it.

In contrast... "based off" or "influenced by" is much more broad.
We know the Beatles, Led Zepplin, Rolling Stones, and other groups were influenced by black artists and this certainly influenced their sounds. But at the same time, their end products were much more distinct in so many ways from what they borrowed from, and let's not forget western music also went all sorts of crazy places with all manner of genres splintering off. And although it could be argued there could be some black music influence in genres such as punk, country, heavy metal, acid rock, shoe gaze, grunge, emo, indie rock, synth pop, disco, etc... most would agree those end products sound sonically and structurally distinct enough that it would be very hard to or impossible to call them direct "copies" of black influenced genres (ex: jazz, blues, RNB, hip-hop, etc.). But either way they are all mostly American or British invented genres.
Quote:

I don't care if KPop is the same as American music or not. Every country around the world makes pop dance music and throws in some rapping. Who cares if its done in a more American or more indigenous style?

So you agree it's the same, but don't care. Ok, so there's no doubt it's all a big copy. Glad you understand. And I can assume you don't care about copying either. Well, it can be an issue for some: lawyers, critics, fans, and anyone who values something unique and original over a cheap copy.

And not "every" country does that, especially to the same extent so let's not oversimplify here. And not every country tries to claim the blatant copies as a "cultural export" in an attempt to market themselves to the rest of the world.
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Mix1



Joined: 08 May 2007

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Mix1 wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
So anyone wish to offer up their detailed history of KPop and the scene and how it came about? I mean you guys all claim to be such experts and how its copied and why they do that style of music and all...

Enlighten us, oh wise one.


Nah, waiting for you guys. You're the experts.

Nice dodge.
Seriously, if you've got some ammo, let it out. it could be interesting. Maybe there's a more interesting story behind the copying than I'm aware of. Maybe there's some crazy new original sounds brewing here and we just don't know about it. Could be.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So you agree it's the same, but don't care. Ok, so there's no doubt it's all a big copy. Glad you understand. And I can assume you don't care about copying either. Well, it can be an issue for some: lawyers, critics, fans, and anyone who values something unique and original over a cheap copy.

And not "every" country does that, especially to the same extent so let's not oversimplify here. And not every country tries to claim the blatant copies as a "cultural export" in an attempt to market themselves to the rest of the world.


Dude, when it comes to pop and rap- pretty much every country has pop and rap, and they all sound pretty similar. Pop music by its very nature is highly derivative. But (most) of the songs are not direct copies.

No one anywhere else in the world has this vitriol over Kpop that people who live here seemingly do. They either find it cool or they find it awful, but they don't really care. They assume that every country's pop music sounds like that, because well, it probably does.

Quote:
Nice dodge.
Seriously, if you've got some ammo, let it out. it could be interesting. Maybe there's a more interesting story behind the copying than I'm aware of. Maybe there's some crazy new original sounds brewing here and we just don't know about it. Could be.


There is of course, the beginning in the 60s with Shin Jung Hyun, He-6, Sanulim, and groups like The Pearl Sisters which were domestic groups that mimicked contemporary music, though they often blended in traditional Korean sounds. At the same time were trot and the influence of enka. After SJH's unfortunate incarceration things turned to a further influence of trot, a few rock bands like Songolmae, and western style pop acts like Nami. Some might say "ho hum", I say there were some real gems in there. But they don't really fall under K-pop, so we won't deal with them here. One important thing- It was either the dictator Park Chung Hee or Chun Doo Hwan who said that one way he wanted to keep the people in line was to sell sex- Not just in terms of brothels, but popular entertainment as well. This would be significant long-term. It didn't start out like that. It took decades to build. But the shift happened.

Modern K-Pop as we know it began with one group- Seo Taiji & Boys. Seo Taiji initially was in a heavy metal band, Sinawe, as its bassist. He left the band and formed a dance/rap group called Seo Taiji & Boys. Their first hit single in 1992 was a hybrids rap-dance-rock song called "난 알아요" that looks every bit the first attempt by a developing country 1992 group that it is. But it was completely new to the people and had the band had the virtue of mixing and making its own music. The next couple of albums had more rock elements mixed in, and while popular, never quite captured the glory of the first one, but they remain a legend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEDHEzs5kyk

They led to a few new groups- notably Deux, Roo'Ra, Solid, DJ DOC, R.ef, Turbo, UP, US and Cool (which I think is the only one still around). Most were either dance or hip-hop based, a few went more trancey/techno. Some wrote their own songs, some were assembled. It was a new era and people were flailing about. In this early-mid 90s phase a lot of the solo acts, who focused more on dance songs or ballads emerged- Uhm Jung Hwa, Kim Hyun Jung, etc. And of course, the ubiquitous ballad singers some of whom had been around even back into the late 1980s.

Everything changed in 1996 with a group called H.O.T. The boy band of Korean boy bands made Big Bang look like a bunch of nobodies. Assembled, wrapped, choreographed, and polished, H.O.T. showed execs how to make serious money. However, their success wasn't solely because of their pre-packaged roots, chosen for looks, lipsynching, and dance routines. Their songs (and videos) dealt with issues that Korean kids faced- issues with their parents, unsure of their place in society, bullying, and suicide. They spawned a legion of other boy bands- Sechskies, Shinhwa, NRG, and so on. Other companies tried to cash in on the model. Some tried to put serious lyrics as well, but others had noticed that the fans seemed to respond more readily to songs about fun things. You also had the rise of the girl groups and the fans they generated. Groups like Fin.K.L. Baby VOX, and SES showed that clearly, the best method for girl groups to shine was to be cute with innocent sweet songs about love and raps featuring the Chippettes. Certainly nothing risque.

Take a look at the songs then vs. now. Night and day. In everything- looks, production quality, everything.

HOT- Their debut hit is the second video. If I put it first, you'd probably turn off your computer. You probably still will. Well, enjoy it for its innocence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2IeVO6pfo4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU67hN11Zsk

Shihwa- Back in the day an MV featuring a bunch of people beating each other with baseball bats was actually about violence and trouble in society, not the video for some love ballad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fac3j6zhtFc

SES-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzRIX7peiUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_yyXw83rt8

FinKL-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VDLCa0ZlOE

You also had another big growth in hip hop. Jinusean, 1TYM. Rap was huge yo.

Jinusean desecrating the BeeGees? Many people might say that, but I actually think they did an okay job here. It was obviously a sample and not a rip-off, so it had that going for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHSDFrDHNwM

And they also had groups that had boys AND girls together. Young Turks Club (That's right, the monster of Kpop swallows up Cenk Uyghur on a google image search all these years later), S#ARP (Too early for twitter), and Koyote (actually pretty alright- one of the few groups that sang live).

But anyways, the genie was out of the bottle. The gold rush was on it was the glory period of 1997-2000. This is when I started listening to Kpop. Of all the music from Asia, KPop was proving to be the most popular with Asian-American listeners. Its groups and acts, the most well known. Everything looked well.

Then something happened. Suddenly things turned into a "Behind the Music". Group members feuded with each other. HOT decided to try and write some of their own things and do songs about the IMF. Like Seo Taiji they became more into a rock sound. Unfortunately, each album they got progressively weirder and less popular.

HOT putting some more rock elements in...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGKo0SJ6Iys

Uhm...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQuI2TdYAA

Yeah...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pi9dg_0Iko

Lesson learned, by execs. Don't give your band creative control, no matter how popular they are because the strain of it all might have caused them to crack and they put out stuff like this. It may be original. It may not be cutey pop. But boy, does it not sell.

However, over in the world of Hip Hop and girl groups, execs were figuring out some good formulas. Hip Hop duo Drunken Tiger burst on the scene and dissed all the Kpop rap groups for being fake, not being from the streets, and not writing their own songs. You see Drunken Tiger actually came from America, actually spoke English, Tiger JK had actually been in a gang, and they had actually been in the hip-hop scene. The execs looking over at the East Coast-West Coast feud in America realized they had gold on their hands and did little to clamp down on this. Soon Korean rap and hip-hop went from the days of Seo Taiji dancing about and Jinusean doing a remix of the Beegees to YG Family shooting it out with cops, and Cho PD and DJ DOC releasing banned albums filled with explicit lyrics.

Drunken Tiger-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu9Z08NZUWc

YG Family-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Qga45zXfM

DJ DOC- Play this song if you want to quit your job and hate your boss. It may be in Korean, but you can get the gist of the chorus.(NSFW)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCzF4pka17s

Remember when I said that cute sells? I was wrong. No one knew it at the time, but little known group called 'Space A', that never caught on, would show the rest of the KPop world how to make an M/V.

Used to be NSFW, these days, I think its Rated G
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMsScCQJUiI

Others say it was Park Ji Yoon's 'Maturity' a nice way of saying 'Losing Virginity'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3K4Sebwlv8

Those cute innocent girls in FinKL?

Here they are now-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-iq0Sy7UwY

If you'll notice, there is a dramatic uptick in sexiness and production values. Kpop was really starting to catch on. Even back then producers were looking at collaborative projects with Chinese artists and the Japanese market. The business was booming. Sex and controversy sells.

Couldn't possible be a bust? Well there was. At least for me. At some point all the old groups broke up. The new ones weren't as good. Ballads and hip hop were still decent but people had gotten over the boy and girl bands. Also, it was college for me and Kpop didn't really match as the music of certain recreational choices associates of mine and who knows, I as well, may have made. I tuned out. The only Korean music I listened to at this point was a band (a legit band) called Rollercoaster. So Korean hipster they even put out their album on LP. Their music and vids more matched with my lifestyle then of sitting on the couch and saying "word" or "man" a lot. Yes, Korea had the hipster by 2002.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlWzGd1hw3w

And then something happened. Just as it looked like Kpop and boy bands might fade into oblivion and be nothing more than a very very minor footnote, two groups entered the public consciousness- Super Junior and the Wondergirls. Wondergirls in many ways being a bridge between the old and the new. The new era of Kpop was upon us. The second wave. Here it was in its full commercial glory. None of the mistakes of the past and everything that made it popular- Sex, glamor, and style, wrapped around a catchy beat.

Cheers if you stuck around to read it. Fans can drop some more names n songs if they want or change some things. But that's how the industry got the way it is today. Fans gobbled up the new, things developed rapidly, boy bands came around, boy bands cracked out, a period of nothing, and then sex sells. What happened when groups got serious, the music got more rock-based, and the bands started writing their own music? Well we saw. Maybe if the members hadn't been forced to do who-knows-what, they might not have cracked out so badly and been less emo. We'll never know.
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Janny



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Location: all over the place

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So anyone wish to offer up their detailed history of KPop and the scene and how it came about? I mean you guys all claim to be such experts and how its copied and why they do that style of music and all...


Who claimed to be an expert? People here are giving their opinions. Nobody is ever right or wrong in this regard. I wish more people on this forum would understand that.

You want someone here to retell the history of Kpop?? What kind of idiot would try that? Who has time to do that?? It would never prove that Kpop is any kind of an original Korean artwork. (IMHO)

Steelrails, honestly. Where do you work and what do you do that allows you SOOOOO much time on Dave's? Because, damn. Are you writing a book?

"Banging My Head Against Racism: One Man's Crusade to Stamp Out Anti-Korean Racism on an Online Forum"
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Janny



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Location: all over the place

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My post got entered just as SR had entered his well-researched post about KPop. Guess he answered my question. Laughing

In any case, I enjoyed reading your historical interpretation. You forgot about G.O.D. in the early 00's... But thanks for the random trivia on KPop.
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stain wrote:
Mix1 wrote:
Stain wrote:
I think the point is that everybody copies. The Koreans learned that copying does sell and they learned it from other cultures like the US. So, they do it at an extremely high rate with no shame. That's nothing new. They even copied that.

Huge oversimplification. Obviously there is always some degree of borrowing/influencing going on, but some cultures simply copy more than others. That's just the way it is, usually based on who made or did what first. Also some cultures view copying as a much more serious offense than others, as you may note with your "no shame" comment.

Koreans, being relative latecomers in the game, are of course going to copy some things. But let's not assume every country is the same on this. You don't see Turkey churning out "T-pop" and copying every western song and genre 1 to 1, then trying to market it back to us in a P.R. stint, passing it off part off as part of their "culture" ... do you?

And to say Koreans "learned to copy" from other cultures is B.S. and an odd statement that looks like its designed to relieve them of any blame for copying. It's also a bit insulting, like they couldn't have even learned to COPY on their own? They had to learn that from others too? "Hey, guys, this is how you copy stuff... got it? Ok go to it!" .... right.


Actually, you are right. My statement was a tad tongue in cheek. After reading it again, I failed to make it more clear. I blame myself.

Please be more careful in the future.
Subtlety is a type of tea to some posters.
Humor is serious business. Please understand.
Your account is under review by the Tongue in Cheek Society. No tads allowed.
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Stan Rogers



Joined: 20 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea yea yea, enough about the past. What's number 1 right now?
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Mix1



Joined: 08 May 2007

PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
The only Korean music I listened to at this point was a band (a legit band) called Rollercoaster. So Korean hipster they even put out their album on LP. Their music and vids more matched with my lifestyle then of sitting on the couch and saying "word" or "man" a lot. Yes, Korea had the hipster by 2002.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlWzGd1hw3w


That song was quality right there. Probably one of the most listenable Korean songs I've heard.

Decent historical account. You're obviously a fan so I can see your need to try and defend it. Obviously there are bound to be a few good exceptions in the piles. I agree there was more of a mixed bag back in the day, but I'm not sure how that's supposed to refute anything I wrote before.

A lot of that other stuff I'd heard before at Norebangs or whatnot. And it just confirms my point even more... a lot of blatant style stealing since the 90's and before. I get that you're into it and how Koreans are into it and can be proud of it, and great for them, but from a critical standpoint, a lot of it still sounds like kinda weak-sauce copy cat versions of stuff coming out of the U.S. or Japan at the time and its still basically true today. So the whole K-pop push to be "international" where they are essentially marketing "sounds like" versions of American pop songs and claiming it to be a cultural export is a bit odd.

It's not so much "hate" as just having to be honest about it and maybe over saturation. But IMO there's just something irritating and overly busy about most of the songs. When I first came to Korea, I really wanted to like some of the music and gave it a go, but couldn't get over how everything sounded like a weaker, less produced, less funky, less everything version of stuff I'd heard back home.

I do remember a coworker made me a CD of some older, really great, melodic RNB stuff, but I can't remember the artist on there. I also think JYP had some decent, listenable productions with Wondergirls but haven't heard anything that great lately. By contrast, I can listen to some J-pop as for a number of reasons it sounds more tuneful and smooth to my ears, but K-pop is almost unlistenable for me, at least the mainstream stuff we hear pumped all over the place in Korea. It's like they've got the same 3-4 producers pumping out the same basic ideas and melodies/raps/structures, and their style just ain't working for me. Sorry.

Then vs now: Granted, there was more of an element of chaos and creativity and freedom at that time maybe, and the industry was quite different and less plastic/commercialized, but the same elements of copy/borrow were heavily entrenched. You have shown there was slightly more diversity in the music business at that time, which parallels the music industry worldwide. Nowadays its ALL super commercialized and a lot of good artists are gone or out of the main spotlight, to make room for groomed up hottie kid clone groups.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralph Winfield wrote:
So, he is the senior citizen who owns the Woodstock in Itaewon? Wow, I've chatted with him so many times and he did not mention having a musical past.

Steelrails wrote:
It's bittersweet to see him now. There's a sort of twitchiness to him that makes me wonder what happened to him during his time in prison. Wouldn't be surprised if he was tortured under orders from the regime.

Ownership changed hands. It's another dude now.
http://magazine.seoulselection.com/2014/04/01/the-search-for-live-music-in-itaewon/
Woodstock Itaewon is one of the oldest bars on the main street, and the oldest live music venue in the neighborhood. It has hosted bands for the past 20 years. Mr. Woo, the owner and quite a character, can always be found dancing, playing pool, tending bar, or relaxing on his couch.
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