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Buddist treatment for mental illness?
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

r2b2ct wrote:
I know a Buddhist monk personally. He has a smart phone. He uses it to take pictures of various places he's been and share them with people he knows. He uses kakao a lot to do this. He is an extremely nice person too. Like the sort of person you speculate is an alien because of how nice he is. I think the smart phone is helpful for him.


mmm, that was a nice story.

And where does he get the money from every month to pay for it? Im assuming he has a job?
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yodanole



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do realize that not everyone that you see wearing the robes and soliciting money is legitimate, do you not? Even in Korea, not everyone is always pure when there is a possibility of financial remuneration through fraud Shocked
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Stain



Joined: 08 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yodanole wrote:
You do realize that not everyone that you see wearing the robes and soliciting money is legitimate, do you not? Even in Korea, not everyone is always pure when there is a possibility of financial remuneration through fraud Shocked


"Even in Korea"- nice one yodanole.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

le-paul wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
You may or may not be right on shoes, but on smartphones I'm not sure you are grasping the degree of features they have. Heck, even that bastion of the Mesozoic, the U.S. Suprem Court, grasped how fundamentally different and powerful smartphones are in their recent decision of Riley v. California.

And for starters it might just be cheaper. Already we have the examples of msg. services that dont charge a per msg fee. How about banking? How much time do you spend having to make transfers by commuting to the bank? Remember, time is money. Add to that the amount of time lost due to lack of information and so on. What about data transfers and ebooks? Phone-as-GPS and black box?

Anyways this reminds me of ppl who are refuse to ever try the KTX and stick to the bus. KTX is so expensive they say. But of course they fail to calculate the time saved vs. their hourly wage and the resulting opportunity cost. Congrats. In order to save 11,000 win you lost an hour and a half of your life and the opportunity to make well more than 11,000 won. Its not being thrifty, it's being obstinant, unimaginative, short-sighted, and afraid of the new and unfamiliar.

But I agree with the shoes and a lot of other things. Its all made at the same Bangladeshi factory out of the same farm factory leather.


Again, what you are saying is irrelevant because my original point is that Buddhist monks dont need smartphones.

Thats BUDDHIST MONKS.


Why don't they? Aren't there different orders and different degrees of monkdom?

If their orders permit it, that's up to them. They are the ones that get to dictate what they do and do not need legitimately, not you.

I don't see how a monk having a smartphone violates their religion if they are part of a liberal sect or lower ranking. As I said, a smartphone is a unique tool that's features cannot be easily replicated. As I said, a smartphone may actually be more frugal and thrifty than not having one in the long run. If a monk is supposed to be frugal and not wasteful, then a smartphone may be the best choice.
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cabeza



Joined: 29 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about a Catholic priest? They take an oath of poverty dont they? Are they allowed one?
I saw a hare krishna with an ipod.

I dont really see it as a problem.
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Hokie21



Joined: 01 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cabeza wrote:
What about a Catholic priest? They take an oath of poverty dont they?


Not necessarily.

http://catholicexchange.com/the-priesthood-and-the-vow-of-poverty

Regarding monks...or priests....I don't really care what they do. I don't go to church, I don't practice any religion and I sure as heck don't donate money to any church. As long as they aren't harming others I really couldn't care less what they do.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

le-paul wrote:

And where does he get the money from every month to pay for it? Im assuming he has a job?


In Korea, being a monk is a job, and monks spend their time doing more than simply focusing on their own spiritual pursuits. They maintain temples, they perform temple services, they do community work, and like any other human being they have their own personal pursuits as well. This is Buddhism as it is, and as it's probably always been to some degree or another. But to be fair you're not necessarily in bad company in criticizing the laxness of such practices. Even over a thousand years ago you can see fellows like the poet Hanshan scolding monks for not living up to his standards for them.

Overall I think Hokie's policy is best: if you think your money would be misused, simply don't donate it.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
le-paul wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
You may or may not be right on shoes, but on smartphones I'm not sure you are grasping the degree of features they have. Heck, even that bastion of the Mesozoic, the U.S. Suprem Court, grasped how fundamentally different and powerful smartphones are in their recent decision of Riley v. California.

And for starters it might just be cheaper. Already we have the examples of msg. services that dont charge a per msg fee. How about banking? How much time do you spend having to make transfers by commuting to the bank? Remember, time is money. Add to that the amount of time lost due to lack of information and so on. What about data transfers and ebooks? Phone-as-GPS and black box?

Anyways this reminds me of ppl who are refuse to ever try the KTX and stick to the bus. KTX is so expensive they say. But of course they fail to calculate the time saved vs. their hourly wage and the resulting opportunity cost. Congrats. In order to save 11,000 win you lost an hour and a half of your life and the opportunity to make well more than 11,000 won. Its not being thrifty, it's being obstinant, unimaginative, short-sighted, and afraid of the new and unfamiliar.

But I agree with the shoes and a lot of other things. Its all made at the same Bangladeshi factory out of the same farm factory leather.


Again, what you are saying is irrelevant because my original point is that Buddhist monks dont need smartphones.

Thats BUDDHIST MONKS.


Why don't they? Aren't there different orders and different degrees of monkdom?

If their orders permit it, that's up to them. They are the ones that get to dictate what they do and do not need legitimately, not you.

I don't see how a monk having a smartphone violates their religion if they are part of a liberal sect or lower ranking. As I said, a smartphone is a unique tool that's features cannot be easily replicated. As I said, a smartphone may actually be more frugal and thrifty than not having one in the long run. If a monk is supposed to be frugal and not wasteful, then a smartphone may be the best choice.


Actually, you do get to have an opinion on the matter when its your money and donations that are paying for them.

It has unique tools that cannot easily be replicated? Have you ever heard of a computer?

Your RANT TANGENT was about smart phones in general and their usefulness quote "How about banking? How much time do you spend having to make transfers by commuting to the bank? Remember, time is money. Add to that the amount of time lost due to lack of information and so on. What about data transfers and ebooks? Phone-as-GPS and black box? " - generally, those things can be done on a computer or in person and why would a monk need black box when hes walking around?

you also said;

Quote

" But of course they fail to calculate the time saved vs. their hourly wage and the resulting opportunity cost. Congrats.".

Do monks get paid hourly? Are they saving money by taking the KTX because its one hour more they could be begging outside of the bus station?


quote;

"Remember, time is money".

How much time do you spend on here inventing arguments so you can debate with yourself? You must be rubbing sticks together in the winter...
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
le-paul wrote:

And where does he get the money from every month to pay for it? Im assuming he has a job?


In Korea, being a monk is a job, and monks spend their time doing more than simply focusing on their own spiritual pursuits. They maintain temples, they perform temple services, they do community work, and like any other human being they have their own personal pursuits as well. This is Buddhism as it is, and as it's probably always been to some degree or another. But to be fair you're not necessarily in bad company in criticizing the laxness of such practices. Even over a thousand years ago you can see fellows like the poet Hanshan scolding monks for not living up to his standards for them.

Overall I think Hokie's policy is best: if you think your money would be misused, simply don't donate it.


Is that true? because from what I understand, most of the temples have women working there (cooking/cleaning etc.) so that monks can concentrate on the spiritual side - and I was told that by monks.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen monks doing grunt work out here in the countryside. I'm sure many temples also have additional staff as well though, especially if they offer temple stays.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
I've seen monks doing grunt work out here in the countryside. I'm sure many temples also have additional staff as well though, especially if they offer temple stays.


Yes, they do partake in physical labour. The point of that though, is charity (as well as the spiritual well being/zen etc.).

The donations that are given (again, as far as I understand), are so that the monks hands can be freed to do such things as charity work, buy food for homeless people (which I have helped with through temples in Korea - running a soup kitchen in the park), running and upkeep of the buildings and premises etc. - even protecting part of the heritage of the country.

When I see a monk begging for money in the street or selling chewing gum, I would like to think that the money was going to something that helps the community or temple users in some way. Im afraid gambling, raping, indulging personal hankerings, don't fall into that category for me.

I think the biggest problem with this whole issue is, in my opinion, that people like monks and nuns are supposed to be setting an example for the rest of us - to the point where you feel almost humbled being in their presence.
If I see them (or hear about) demonstrating intemperance etc.,or even driving about in expensive cars (especially when I cant afford one myself despite working full time!), Ill admit, its disappointing because its an aspiration less and a role negative model for a lot of people.

Laws dont mean much to most people any more, in that case we are told what to do.
These people are the last bastion of moral society, and to be honest, I expect a little more from them - if only for that reason.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, you do get to have an opinion on the matter when its your money and donations that are paying for them.


Well then before you castigate the monk for his smartphone, ask him why he has it and what he uses it for.

Quote:
It has unique tools that cannot easily be replicated? Have you ever heard of a computer?


A smartphone IS a computer. It's a computer with more capability than a desktop PC in like the year 2000. Unlike that computer, you can carry it in your pocket, a function the desktop computer cannot replicate. The smartphone is able to combine a host of functions into a single unit, which before would require a room to house.

Quote:
our RANT TANGENT was about smart phones in general and their usefulness quote "How about banking? How much time do you spend having to make transfers by commuting to the bank? Remember, time is money. Add to that the amount of time lost due to lack of information and so on. What about data transfers and ebooks? Phone-as-GPS and black box? " - generally, those things can be done on a computer or in person and why would a monk need black box when hes walking around?


Again, a smartphone IS a computer. It's a digital swiss army knife. In today's world, with things like kakao and facebook and twitter, it is also increasingly the dominant form of communication. If you intelligently use it you can save a considerable amount of time. Time you could use helping the poor or something.

Quote:
Do monks get paid hourly? Are they saving money by taking the KTX because its one hour more they could be begging outside of the bus station?


Time is not just money, it is opportunity.

Quote:
How much time do you spend on here inventing arguments so you can debate with yourself? You must be rubbing sticks together in the winter...


What I choose to do with my time is up to me.

Anyways, just because YOU don't have a smartphone, don't care to own one, and apparently don't understand them, doesn't make them stupid or wasteful or immoral.

The decision over whether a monk carries a smartphone is an ethical one determined by his order, not by you.

You can choose to morally judge it as wrong, but if you do, that means its wrong for EVERYONE to have one.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do people think Buddhist monks aren't supposed to enjoy luxuries of modern life?

Buddhism is a religion, and how it is interpreted is different from person to person. There really is no right way, or wrong way to live as a monk. In the end, if for whatever reason, a person feels Buddhism will them a better person, than go ahead be a Buddhist, or whatever religion you want to be.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
Why do people think Buddhist monks aren't supposed to enjoy luxuries of modern life?

Buddhism is a religion, and how it is interpreted is different from person to person. There really is no right way, or wrong way to live as a monk. In the end, if for whatever reason, a person feels Buddhism will them a better person, than go ahead be a Buddhist, or whatever religion you want to be.


Good lord...

no one os arguing that cant enjoy the pleasures of life, Im trying to argue that its wrong when the money comes from donations that were given under the pretence (or at least misconception), that they were going to be used for other purposes (eg restoration/charity).

if you gave money to a beggar who was asking for money for food/shelter and then went off and bought a cd, would that be ok?
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optik404



Joined: 24 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you care what a beggar does with your money after you willingly hand it over?
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