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Mandatory training, Sat 19th?
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goat



Joined: 23 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
goat wrote:
ontheway wrote:
DaeguNL wrote:
ontheway wrote:


It doesn't pay to challenge dumb cops or dumb bureaucrats over their "authority."


This couldn't be more irrelevant to this topic. I have been invited to the training
3 times during my 5 years..I attended once, and skipped twice. I would guess about 8 or 9 of the 20 or so foreign coworkers attended. Nothing happened to those who skipped, not even a warning. I will never return to it again, as it is a complete joke. It is a forum for the police to remind us not to sexually assault kids, and they throw on a performance to mask that.
I am no longer on an E-2 visa, so I dont know if I will get invited. I asked my work about it and they had no idea what I was talking about.
No one is gonna get fired or fined for not attending this BS


The fact that you lived in an area that let you escape without a penalty for missing the meetings means little. The fact that you currently live in an area that still doesn't hold these meetings is your good fortune. The meetings are useless, there is no training, and they are a waste of time - no argument from me.

But it's your experience that is not relevant to the topic. It doesn't follow logically.

You may have gone speeding down the highway, been stopped by the police and you were not issued a ticket, or maybe you weren't stopped at all. It doesn't mean that the next guy won't get a speeding ticket or that you won't get a ticket on another stretch of road.


Are you the only teacher who has been fined for missing one of these meetings?


I have no idea. I met teachers who were attending a make up meeting as required by the education office. I knew a teacher who was threatened with a fine or make up meeting by the education office, but he had actually attended and was eventually able to produce witnesses, both Korean and foreign, that he had been there (he either forgot to turn in his attendance form or it was lost).

It would be nice if these were no longer required. Teachers in the City of Seoul may never have to attend, they may never hold one of these meetings there. Some places seem very disorganized in their record keeping by the experience of others listed here, so the education offices under those conditions may be unable to pursue or even identify non-attendees. But at the present time, for teachers who get one of the meeting notices with their name on it that is required to be turned in at the event to prove attendance, the best advice is to go yourself, you can read, text, play games, even nap ... but at least make sure that your card is filed and your fee paid. Even better to have a witness that you were actually there.


So as far as you know, you are the only teacher who you can say has been fined?

Have you ever been abducted by aliens in a flying saucier? If so, can you give a detailed description of the abduction? How long did they keep you on the ship? What did they look like? Where did the abduction take place? Can you describe their appearance? Did they do any type of experiments on you? Did they make you fill out any type of forms? Did you receive any type of letter informing you that the abduction would take place? Did they charge a fee for taking you on the ship? When you were freed from the flying saucier, did it play one of those funny tunes like the hogwons play when they dismiss the students?
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

goat wrote:
ontheway wrote:
goat wrote:
ontheway wrote:
DaeguNL wrote:
ontheway wrote:


It doesn't pay to challenge dumb cops or dumb bureaucrats over their "authority."


This couldn't be more irrelevant to this topic. I have been invited to the training
3 times during my 5 years..I attended once, and skipped twice. I would guess about 8 or 9 of the 20 or so foreign coworkers attended. Nothing happened to those who skipped, not even a warning. I will never return to it again, as it is a complete joke. It is a forum for the police to remind us not to sexually assault kids, and they throw on a performance to mask that.
I am no longer on an E-2 visa, so I dont know if I will get invited. I asked my work about it and they had no idea what I was talking about.
No one is gonna get fired or fined for not attending this BS


The fact that you lived in an area that let you escape without a penalty for missing the meetings means little. The fact that you currently live in an area that still doesn't hold these meetings is your good fortune. The meetings are useless, there is no training, and they are a waste of time - no argument from me.

But it's your experience that is not relevant to the topic. It doesn't follow logically.

You may have gone speeding down the highway, been stopped by the police and you were not issued a ticket, or maybe you weren't stopped at all. It doesn't mean that the next guy won't get a speeding ticket or that you won't get a ticket on another stretch of road.


Are you the only teacher who has been fined for missing one of these meetings?


I have no idea. I met teachers who were attending a make up meeting as required by the education office. I knew a teacher who was threatened with a fine or make up meeting by the education office, but he had actually attended and was eventually able to produce witnesses, both Korean and foreign, that he had been there (he either forgot to turn in his attendance form or it was lost).

It would be nice if these were no longer required. Teachers in the City of Seoul may never have to attend, they may never hold one of these meetings there. Some places seem very disorganized in their record keeping by the experience of others listed here, so the education offices under those conditions may be unable to pursue or even identify non-attendees. But at the present time, for teachers who get one of the meeting notices with their name on it that is required to be turned in at the event to prove attendance, the best advice is to go yourself, you can read, text, play games, even nap ... but at least make sure that your card is filed and your fee paid. Even better to have a witness that you were actually there.


So as far as you know, you are the only teacher who you can say has been fined?

Yes, I'm the only one who didn't attend an alternate meeting to avoid the fine that I know of. The others in the end were not fined because they attended a make up meeting. I really was never that interested in the topic since my boss paid the fine for making the mistake.

However, teachers need to be aware that fines are possible in parts of Korea, and that there were several cases to my personal knowledge of being threatened with the fine by their local education offices where the teachers took a long trip to another location (where I was attending) to escape the fine. This had been strongly suggested to me as well but I refused the long trip to a different city and told my boss to just pay the fine. So, it was only me and the few that I met at random at the meetings, but I've never actively looked, so unless I've randomly met every one, there are probably others. My case and each of the other teachers I met who had a similar problem were in different years and from different locations.

The only interesting thing at each meeting has been meeting new teachers. Some had traveled great distances, which brought up the why question and the response of attending a make up meeting because they missed the local one and had been required to come by their local education office rules.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

goat wrote:
... one of those funny tunes like the hogwons play when they dismiss the students?



You must be making up stories now. I've never heard of any hogwan playing any kind of music to dismiss students.
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nicwr2002



Joined: 17 Aug 2011

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is 보강 for not attending the meeting?? Now I know he is making this up.
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DaeguNL



Joined: 08 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
DaeguNL wrote:
ontheway wrote:


It doesn't pay to challenge dumb cops or dumb bureaucrats over their "authority."


This couldn't be more irrelevant to this topic. I have been invited to the training
3 times during my 5 years..I attended once, and skipped twice. I would guess about 8 or 9 of the 20 or so foreign coworkers attended. Nothing happened to those who skipped, not even a warning. I will never return to it again, as it is a complete joke. It is a forum for the police to remind us not to sexually assault kids, and they throw on a performance to mask that.
I am no longer on an E-2 visa, so I dont know if I will get invited. I asked my work about it and they had no idea what I was talking about.
No one is gonna get fired or fined for not attending this BS


The fact that you lived in an area that let you escape without a penalty for missing the meetings means little. The fact that you currently live in an area that still doesn't hold these meetings is your good fortune. The meetings are useless, there is no training, and they are a waste of time - no argument from me.

But it's your experience that is not relevant to the topic. It doesn't follow logically.

You may have gone speeding down the highway, been stopped by the police and you were not issued a ticket, or maybe you weren't stopped at all. It doesn't mean that the next guy won't get a speeding ticket or that you won't get a ticket on another stretch of road.


So my experience of not getting fined/fired is irrelevant, but yours (as apparently the only teacher to actually get fined from not attending) is?

I'm just stating that I've never heard of anyone getting reprimanded for not attending, and that includes co workers, friends, random strangers etc.
Though I can never rule anything out in Korea, I bet the worst thing that will happen 99.9% of the time, is that your boss will ask why you didnt go.
Say you were feeling ill and wanted to recover by the time monday classes roll around, and he/she will leave it with a smile on their face. (This is exactly what happened to me)
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaeguNL wrote:
ontheway wrote:
DaeguNL wrote:
ontheway wrote:


It doesn't pay to challenge dumb cops or dumb bureaucrats over their "authority."


This couldn't be more irrelevant to this topic. I have been invited to the training
3 times during my 5 years..I attended once, and skipped twice. I would guess about 8 or 9 of the 20 or so foreign coworkers attended. Nothing happened to those who skipped, not even a warning. I will never return to it again, as it is a complete joke. It is a forum for the police to remind us not to sexually assault kids, and they throw on a performance to mask that.
I am no longer on an E-2 visa, so I dont know if I will get invited. I asked my work about it and they had no idea what I was talking about.
No one is gonna get fired or fined for not attending this BS


The fact that you lived in an area that let you escape without a penalty for missing the meetings means little. The fact that you currently live in an area that still doesn't hold these meetings is your good fortune. The meetings are useless, there is no training, and they are a waste of time - no argument from me.

But it's your experience that is not relevant to the topic. It doesn't follow logically.

You may have gone speeding down the highway, been stopped by the police and you were not issued a ticket, or maybe you weren't stopped at all. It doesn't mean that the next guy won't get a speeding ticket or that you won't get a ticket on another stretch of road.


So my experience of not getting fined/fired is irrelevant, but yours (as apparently the only teacher to actually get fined from not attending) is?

I'm just stating that I've never heard of anyone getting reprimanded for not attending, and that includes co workers, friends, random strangers etc.
Though I can never rule anything out in Korea, I bet the worst thing that will happen 99.9% of the time, is that your boss will ask why you didnt go.
Say you were feeling ill and wanted to recover by the time monday classes roll around, and he/she will leave it with a smile on their face. (This is exactly what happened to me)



That's right, if you had an ounce of logic you would understand that your experience is not relevant at all to your statement:

Quote:
No one is gonna get fired or fined for not attending ...


It may be only 1 in 1000, but that ain't "no one" which is what you're claiming.

Your experience is not relevant just as the person who got no speeding ticket's experience is not relevant to the fact that you can get a speeding ticket for speeding. The person who got a speeding ticket proves that it can happen and the person who was fined for failure to attend proves that it can happen. The ones that got away do not prove that you can't get a ticket or get fined...

... Every day in the news we hear about some law and people who have gotten away with breaking it. That fact that you or anyone else escaped only proves that some people never get caught and some get caught but face no penalties. Everyone already knew that.

****

In parts of Korea they don't hold the meetings, in parts of Korea they have no list of attendees, and in parts of Korea they are reluctant to take action against those who don't attend. And every year there are parts of Korea where the rules are changing. So, at the 19th of July meeting it may not matter, (in this thread, we don't know precedures that will be followed) ...

... but in some parts of Korea every required attendee has a two part registration form that must be shown to the workers at the registration desk at the beginning of the meeting, and the registration fee is collected. It is logged in against a master list as you enter. Then one part of the form is turned in after the meeting to verify attendance. The teacher retains the second part as a receipt to return to the school. Later they verify attendance against the master list at the education office. Anyone who misses the event is contacted by the education office and required to attend a later session at an alternate location. If you miss the make up session you are fined.

To avoid a required attendance at a make-up meeting or a fine, you must make sure that your fee is paid and your attendance form is turned in as you leave.


Last edited by ontheway on Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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denverdeath



Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
DaeguNL wrote:
ontheway wrote:
DaeguNL wrote:
ontheway wrote:


It doesn't pay to challenge dumb cops or dumb bureaucrats over their "authority."


This couldn't be more irrelevant to this topic. I have been invited to the training
3 times during my 5 years..I attended once, and skipped twice. I would guess about 8 or 9 of the 20 or so foreign coworkers attended. Nothing happened to those who skipped, not even a warning. I will never return to it again, as it is a complete joke. It is a forum for the police to remind us not to sexually assault kids, and they throw on a performance to mask that.
I am no longer on an E-2 visa, so I dont know if I will get invited. I asked my work about it and they had no idea what I was talking about.
No one is gonna get fired or fined for not attending this BS


The fact that you lived in an area that let you escape without a penalty for missing the meetings means little. The fact that you currently live in an area that still doesn't hold these meetings is your good fortune. The meetings are useless, there is no training, and they are a waste of time - no argument from me.

But it's your experience that is not relevant to the topic. It doesn't follow logically.

You may have gone speeding down the highway, been stopped by the police and you were not issued a ticket, or maybe you weren't stopped at all. It doesn't mean that the next guy won't get a speeding ticket or that you won't get a ticket on another stretch of road.


So my experience of not getting fined/fired is irrelevant, but yours (as apparently the only teacher to actually get fined from not attending) is?

I'm just stating that I've never heard of anyone getting reprimanded for not attending, and that includes co workers, friends, random strangers etc.
Though I can never rule anything out in Korea, I bet the worst thing that will happen 99.9% of the time, is that your boss will ask why you didnt go.
Say you were feeling ill and wanted to recover by the time monday classes roll around, and he/she will leave it with a smile on their face. (This is exactly what happened to me)


That's right, if you had an ounce of logic you would understand that your experience is not relevant at all to your statement:

Quote:
No one is gonna get fired or fined for not attending ...


It may be only 1 in 1000, but that ain't "no one" which is what you're claiming.

In parts of Korea they don't hold the meetings, in parts of Korea they have no list of attendees, and in parts of Korea they are reluctant to take action against those who don't attend. So, at the 19th of July meeting it may not matter, (we don't know precedures that will be followed) ...

... but in some parts of Korea every required attendee has a two part registration form that must be presented at the beginning of the meeting and is logged in against a master list as you enter. Then one part is turned in to verify attendance at the end, with a receipt to return to the school. They verify attendance against the master list at the education office. Everyone who misses the event is contacted by the education office and required to attend a later session at an alternate location. If you miss the make up session you are fined.

Your experience is not relevant just as the person who got no speeding ticket's experience is not relevant to the fact that you can get a speeding ticket for speeding. The person who got a speeding ticket proves that it can happen and the person who was fined for failure to attend proves that it can happen. The ones that got away do not prove that you can't get a ticket or get fined...


Just curious. Was either the initial "training" session, or the resheduled one, scheduled on a weekend? If so, pretty sure most "employees" could fight it.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denverdeath wrote:


Just curious. Was either the initial "training" session, or the resheduled one, scheduled on a weekend? If so, pretty sure most "employees" could fight it.



I've seen mostly weekend meetings, but a few on weekdays. Despite being a day off, most hogwan teachers seem to prefer Saturday. I might guess that weekend meetings are much more common, however with hundreds of these held around Korea over decades I don't know the mix. I certainly don't attend any extra ones to find out.

Attendance is required and scheduled by the education office, not by the employer, so there would be no grounds to fight attendance based on when the meeting is scheduled. Some teachers may have to attend on a day off and for others it might be a work day, but it's not up to the employer. The meetings are required for all hogwan teachers, not just E2 English teachers, so it's essentially a tax against your time, not discriminatory, and what grounds would you have against the government to fight their rules for "training" that would exempt foreigners?

Some people have special circumstances, but they still have to make sure that their fee is paid and attendance card filed properly.
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denverdeath



Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
denverdeath wrote:


Just curious. Was either the initial "training" session, or the resheduled one, scheduled on a weekend? If so, pretty sure most "employees" could fight it.



I've seen mostly weekend meetings, but a few on weekdays. Despite being a day off, most hogwan teachers seem to prefer Saturday. I might guess that weekend meetings are much more common, however with hundreds of these held around Korea over decades I don't know the mix. I certainly don't attend any extra ones to find out.

Attendance is required and scheduled by the education office, not by the employer, so there would be no grounds to fight attendance based on when the meeting is scheduled. Some teachers may have to attend on a day off and for others it might be a work day, but it's not up to the employer.

Some people have special circumstances, but they still have to make sure that their fee is paid and attendance card filed properly.


Yoon's made me work Saturdays, 2 per month, so i quit after a yr, even though it was a fairly good work place. Pa=%da tried 2 make everyone work work Saturdays near the end of my 3rd yr with them, so i gave up a fairly good position(as head teacher) with them. Ive never had to attend 1 of these "training" sessions EVER. And, have only have had to work Saturdays at Yoon's for only one yr, and that was at the turn of the century. Not sayin it doesnt happen, just sayin it has never happened for me b4...and it most def WONT happen on a wkend! Yes, ive worked ALL areas in korea, too. I think maybe the busan edn office either doesnt have that much power, doesnt abuse it, or doesnt do its job. Regardless...not like i care 2 much.
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mermaidpower



Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Location: Oregon, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My school got some of these letters and registration forms.

I'm calling BS and not going. It sounds like something that tries to bully and guilt you into thinking it's mandatory.

I originally was gonna tell my boss I'm not going. But I think I'll just wait til the Monday after and say I forgot.

PS is ontheway a hagwon owner troll or something? No offense ontheway. You just remind me of an old boss I had who would try to bully his authority around. I could totally see him having an account on here and talking shit.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly from the long and detailed history of massive amounts of fines being levied in years past over these mandatory meetings and the flood of stories on the internet about it, we can anticipate such things in the future as well.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mermaidpower wrote:
My school got some of these letters and registration forms.

I'm calling BS and not going. It sounds like something that tries to bully and guilt you into thinking it's mandatory.

I originally was gonna tell my boss I'm not going. But I think I'll just wait til the Monday after and say I forgot.

PS is ontheway a hagwon owner troll or something? No offense ontheway. You just remind me of an old boss I had who would try to bully his authority around. I could totally see him having an account on here and talking shit.


Chances are, after the shock and initial anger ... (does your boss scream and shout or is he the type to hold back and let his resentment grow) ... your boss will look for the easiest way out. If he's lucky enough to have contacts on the inside somewhere, he will make nice with some excuse and try to get the fee paid and the form submitted as if you had been there, so no one will notice - the path of least resistance. However, it would be easier to make sure you are "there" by planning in advance. This is how most people avoid difficulties, by making sure that their fee is paid and their form is filed.
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fezmond



Joined: 27 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My head teacher spoke to whomever sent the forms and she said that anyone who has done it since 2011 now doesn't have to go.

Who knows? Either way, nobody at my school will be going.
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nicwr2002



Joined: 17 Aug 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To avoid a required attendance at a make-up meeting or a fine, you must make sure that your fee is paid and your attendance form is turned in as you leave.


Quote:
Despite being a day off, most hogwan teachers seem to prefer Saturday.


Quote:
Some had traveled great distances, which brought up the why question and the response of attending a make up meeting because they missed the local one and had been required to come by their local education office rules.



For one, why is there a fee for someone to attend this "training" session if it is put on by the government? If it is mandatory it should be free. Now, if it was like some hagwons there was always a tri-monthly meeting on Saturdays that the teachers had to go to, but that was the hagwon's meeting. No NET prefers to go to a non-paid training session on a Saturday. What government office would waste time and money on a 'make-up" meeting.

It may be mandatory for the boss to make you go because of the Hagwon Association, but I'm sure it isn't mandatory by immigration or the MOE. If you were fined that sucks for you, so I'm sure you were tricked by your former boss.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicwr2002 wrote:
Quote:
To avoid a required attendance at a make-up meeting or a fine, you must make sure that your fee is paid and your attendance form is turned in as you leave.


Quote:
Despite being a day off, most hogwan teachers seem to prefer Saturday.


Quote:
Some had traveled great distances, which brought up the why question and the response of attending a make up meeting because they missed the local one and had been required to come by their local education office rules.



1) For one, why is there a fee for someone to attend this "training" session if it is put on by the government? If it is mandatory it should be free.

2) No NET prefers to go to a non-paid training session on a Saturday. ... Now, if it was like some hagwons there was always a tri-monthly meeting on Saturdays that the teachers had to go to, but that was the hagwon's meeting.

3) What government office would waste time and money on a 'make-up" meeting.

4) It may be mandatory for the boss to make you go because of the Hagwon Association, but I'm sure it isn't mandatory by immigration or the MOE. If you were fined that sucks for you, so I'm sure you were tricked by your former boss.



1) Why do the Korean hogwan teachers, managers and owners have to pay for the Korean language "training" sessions? Why aren't driver's licenses free if they actually care about safety? Why did state governments in the US issue the first drivers licenses for a $5 fee and no test or anything, just your name and address and a mail in fee? Why do kids in Korea have to pay a fee to attend government run middle and high schools?
Government policy is all about collecting money.


2) Several years back one of these local meetings was scheduled for midweek and there was a flurry of complaints from teachers since they would have to attend a meeting from 9am to noon or 1:00 and then teach in the afternoon from 2 - 9 or 3 - 10 or whatever, typical hogwan hours. Plus other teachers would have had to travel long distances that would be very difficult during the week, so the meeting was quickly changed to the following Saturday. But everyone has their own preference. Do a survey.


3) Apparently you haven't read this thread. The various Education Offices that are in compliance with the law hold these meetings at various dates all year long from January through December - they are not all coming up on July 19. Each local office holds one meeting per year. (Teachers from small towns where there is no education office, or where no meetings are held, are required to go to another location in the same province.)

Since there are several meetings in any given calendar year given in the same province by different local education offices on different dates, if you miss the meeting that is close by, your local education office requires you to attend a regularly scheduled session at a later date at another location, which for you would be a make up session to avoid the fine. So, I met teachers attending my local meeting who were attending from a distant city to make up a meeting they had missed (their originally assigned meeting) in order to avoid being fined.


4) The meetings are required by law. They are given under the jurisdiction of the local and provincial education offices (not the MOE in Seoul).

(Again, I will assume that you have just failed to read the thread and you are not reading impaired.) So, I repeat:

My hogwan boss at the time didn't care personally that I hadn't attended. However, a letter came in my name from the education office that required me to attend a make up session, being held in another city the next month, which would have required several hours of travel for the round trip, or to pay a fine. Had I known about the original local meeting I would have gone. Since it was my wonjangnim who failed to tell me about the meeting, I declined to attend the makeup meeting and I didn't pay the fine. My boss accepted the blame and paid the fine to the education office.
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