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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
We may be ahead of the Muslims ...but it's the equivalent of being a stride or two ahead in a 10,000 meter race that is only about 1,000 meters underway. Nothing to really sit in judgment over.


There's a big difference between a society where women form half the worforce and are represented in parliament as opposed to one which does not allow women to drive and kills people who want to leave their cult.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaparrastique wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
We may be ahead of the Muslims ...but it's the equivalent of being a stride or two ahead in a 10,000 meter race that is only about 1,000 meters underway. Nothing to really sit in judgment over.


There's a big difference between a society where women form half the worforce and are represented in parliament as opposed to one which does not allow women to drive and kills people who want to leave their cult.


And yet women in that society still feel that they are an oppressed class, whose rights and security must be monitored vigilantly, lest they fade away. At the degree of the Middle East? Of course not, but when we're talking the grand scale of things we're still a long ways away from being done with that, and there's still a host of other issues. It's a given that even in those countries any woman over 40 has had at least a taste of "the old ways". Those fears and prejudices do not disappear that quickly. And from a traditionalist perspective, how much progress is being made in women's rights when it seems half of it, at least for the common person, goes into "Hos in different area codes" and Miley Cyrus?

We seem to think that we are somehow in the United Federation of Planets and that the non-Western world is on a good day in the 1950s and in the bad, medieval times. When really, we're a heck of a lot closer to all of that than the 24th century. We see Angela Merkel, they see Britney Spears. And there's a lot more women out there acting like Britney Spears than Angela Merkel. Is that accurate? No, because what they may be passing by is Rosie the Riveter, frontier women, and everyday people, but if all you have to go by is what you see on TV, you're going to get certain results.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:

When really, we're a heck of a lot closer to all of that than the 24th century.


I doubt it, SR.

Lets consider Palestinian women for a moment.

1. They are virtually housebound, they are rarely allowed to venture out except for when with a male chaperone.
2. If they so much as make eye contact with a man they are not married to, they may be stoned to death or set on fire. Such a killing must be carried out by her own family members.
3. It is not uncommon for husbands and fathers to have killed several of their own daughters or wives and simply interred them under their house.
4. Women have to endure any amount of abuse and domestic violence from the men of their families: the authorities do not view it as a crime, in fact they typically return raped or battered women to the families that abuse them.
5. Women are denied education or careers: that is for the boys.
6. Women must be wrapped in cloth from head to toe for virtually their entire lives.


What we have here is a 6th century cult that rules and spreads by fear and violence, and exerts a virtually inescapable death-grip on its adherents. It snuffs out virtually all opposing voices and personal freedoms, it turns humans into slaves, and it sanctions cruelty and inhumanity in its holy book. It also aims to infiltrate and then dominate every land on the planet.

Islam wants to bomb us, the western world, back to the stone age. The goals of that religion are clear and open, muslims to do not deny them. They will never assimilate, they have no wish to. And the tiny few that want to are barred from doing so by their own communities: the only escape allowed from islam is by death. Obviously we should not be allowing muslim immigration into our advanced western societies, they are entirely incompatible.

That is not the same for people of other races though. Simple racial differences are an absurd reason to prohibit immigration.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lets consider Palestinian women for a moment.


Before that, let's consider some other factors.

Palestine is a place that was partitioned and gave some ethnic groups a state and the other, the one its named after- The Palestinians, it did not.

Palestine is a place where that ethnic group maintains effective control over them and in which they have limited rights, and a serious lack of economic opportunities.

You get a state like that, and I don't care if its Christian Africa, Buddhist SE Asia, or Catholic Latin America and you are going to get see social issues and violence against women. We've seen it in Ireland (not to the same degree of course), and you saw and still to some extent see it in minority communities (from immigrants to descendents of slaves to native born) in America.

Quote:
Islam wants to bomb us, the western world, back to the stone age.


Islam wants to do this? Does this include Bosnia? Albania? Indonesia? India? Malaysia? Turkey? Tunisia? Bangladesh? Kyrgyzstan? Kazakhstan? Turkmenistan? Uzbekistan? The Druze? The Kurds? The Hashemites and Jordanians? The Omanis?

You aren't talking about Islam, you're talking about the impoverished Arab world (who probably want to kill their own leaders first), and certain groups in AFPAK. Even the Iranians, for all their bluster, seem about as up for this as the Chinese or the Cubans, which is to say, not really.

You do realize that "Islam" is no more unified and can be no more generalized than "Protestantism" or "The Roman Catholic Church", right?
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:

Palestine is a place that was partitioned and gave some ethnic groups a state and the other, the one its named after- The Palestinians, it did not.


oh so now its israels fault that muslims routinely kill their own defenceless women?

The denial of womens rights extend across the entire muslim world, not only Palestine.

Quote:
Palestine is a place where ..a serious lack of economic opportunities.


Saudi Arabia is rolling in money- as are other arab states- but the oppression of women is still a strong feature. drop it.

Quote:
You do realize that "Islam" is no more unified and can be no more generalized than "Protestantism" or "The Roman Catholic Church", right?


The more liberal of the muslims do not rein in the more extreme among their number. Muslims cannot self-regulate because the most extreme acts are ultimately condoned by what is written in their book, which they refer to as their ultimate authority. Muslims who publicly speak out get knocked on the head: they do not allow logic and human dignity to overrule their 700 yr-old instruction manual.

The results of the Islamic immigration experiment are in, the lessons are loud and clear...
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
oh so now its israels fault that muslims routinely kill their own defenceless women?

The denial of womens rights extend across the entire muslim world, not only Palestine.


We're not assigning blame. Blame is assigned to individuals, not groups. Prosecute the individuals who engage such acts, blame the lawmakers (usually autocratic) who write any laws.

Quote:
Saudi Arabia is rolling in money- as are other arab states- but the oppression of women is still a strong feature. drop it.


You glossed over the other clauses in my statement- namely the fact that for a long time the Palestinians themselves do not have a state under which they can pass such laws, and still to this day have merely an 'authority'.

And in Saudi Arabia and other states, men face strict codes of conducts and stiff punishments as well. They too are subject to honor killings, beheadings, and codes of dress and appearance.

Quote:
The more liberal of the muslims do not rein in the more extreme among their number. Muslims cannot self-regulate because the most extreme acts are ultimately condoned by what is written in their book, which they refer to as their ultimate authority. Muslims who publicly speak out get knocked on the head: they do not allow logic and human dignity to overrule their 700 yr-old instruction manual.


Bosnia does not self regulate itself? Indonesia? Albania? Turkey? Tunisia? Even the Egyptians through out the Muslim Brotherhood after they had had enough of them.

Is Turkey or Albania supposed to invoke the NATO charter and launch an invasion across the Muslim world to regulate Muslim behavior? There are things called sovereign states and military capabilities and national boundaries which limit the capacity of Muslims in one state to regulate the behavior in another.

Is the UK/Protestantism to blame for pseudo-Christian groups that engage in ethnic cleansing in Africa and use genocide and mass rape as tactics? Are Brits incapable of self-regulation because they refuse to stop such militias?

You have to first decide a nation's/religion's level of responsibility for the conduct of its members around the world, then judge whether they follow it. Not retroactively apply standards after you read some news story you don't like. We've made this decision back in 1648 (incidentally when we had our own massive religious war and were hanging women as witches), its called the Westphalian system and the responsibility stops at a nation's boundaries, not with the members of a religion. That is the system WE ourselves have established, forced others to abide by, and judge ourselves on. It is only fair in turn to judge others in the same manner. Bosnian, Turkish, and Indonesian Muslims are no more responsible for what religious affairs go on in Saudi Arabia or Palestine, than Brits are for what goes on in Uganda.


Last edited by Steelrails on Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is Turkey or Albania supposed to invoke the NATO charter and launch an invasion across the Muslim world to regulate Muslim behavior?


Ring a ding, ding....bingo.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
Quote:
Is Turkey or Albania supposed to invoke the NATO charter and launch an invasion across the Muslim world to regulate Muslim behavior?


Ring a ding, ding....bingo.


So your idea is that a Balkan nation should spuriously declare you and drag in the rest of the world into a massive conflict that will kill millions, bankrupt states, and probably solve nothing?

You do realize its 100 years since 1914, right? Did we learn anything from history?

Are you happy with war being declared on your behalf by the Albanians or the Turks? Or is it a better idea to use force sparingly and only after careful consideration, likely after a declaration of war by a foreign nation, not some criminal terrorist group.

Are you going to sign up to participate in this NATO crusade (or would it be Jihad, as it is a Muslim religious war) and fight? Are you a jihadi?
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

You do realize its 100 years since 1914, right? Did we learn anything from history
'


WWI had much more to do with the ethnic tensions in Austria-Hungary...one could not survive with the other in place...


In which case, Germany was simply honoring its treaty agreements...or so, I was taught.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:
Quote:

You do realize its 100 years since 1914, right? Did we learn anything from history
'


WWI had much more to do with the ethnic tensions in Austria-Hungary...one could not survive with the other in place...


In which case, Germany was simply honoring its treaty agreements...or so, I was taught.


Read Barbara Tuchman's book The Guns of August. The breakout of WWI had little to do with the events in the Balkans. The assasination was just the final straw that broke the camels back. The war could have been avoided if not for arrogance and poor communication between the various European powers.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
oh so now its israels fault that muslims routinely kill their own defenceless women?

The denial of womens rights extend across the entire muslim world, not only Palestine.


We're not assigning blame. Blame is assigned to individuals, not groups. Prosecute the individuals who engage such acts, blame the lawmakers (usually autocratic) who write any laws.

Quote:
Saudi Arabia is rolling in money- as are other arab states- but the oppression of women is still a strong feature. drop it.


You glossed over the other clauses in my statement- namely the fact that for a long time the Palestinians themselves do not have a state under which they can pass such laws, and still to this day have merely an 'authority'.

And in Saudi Arabia and other states, men face strict codes of conducts and stiff punishments as well. They too are subject to honor killings, beheadings, and codes of dress and appearance.

Quote:
The more liberal of the muslims do not rein in the more extreme among their number. Muslims cannot self-regulate because the most extreme acts are ultimately condoned by what is written in their book, which they refer to as their ultimate authority. Muslims who publicly speak out get knocked on the head: they do not allow logic and human dignity to overrule their 700 yr-old instruction manual.


Bosnia does not self regulate itself? Indonesia? Albania? Turkey? Tunisia? Even the Egyptians through out the Muslim Brotherhood after they had had enough of them.

Is Turkey or Albania supposed to invoke the NATO charter and launch an invasion across the Muslim world to regulate Muslim behavior? There are things called sovereign states and military capabilities and national boundaries which limit the capacity of Muslims in one state to regulate the behavior in another.

Is the UK/Protestantism to blame for pseudo-Christian groups that engage in ethnic cleansing in Africa and use genocide and mass rape as tactics? Are Brits incapable of self-regulation because they refuse to stop such militias?

You have to first decide a nation's/religion's level of responsibility for the conduct of its members around the world, then judge whether they follow it. Not retroactively apply standards after you read some news story you don't like. We've made this decision back in 1648 (incidentally when we had our own massive religious war and were hanging women as witches), its called the Westphalian system and the responsibility stops at a nation's boundaries, not with the members of a religion. That is the system WE ourselves have established, forced others to abide by, and judge ourselves on. It is only fair in turn to judge others in the same manner. Bosnian, Turkish, and Indonesian Muslims are no more responsible for what religious affairs go on in Saudi Arabia or Palestine, than Brits are for what goes on in Uganda.


I admire your effort- truly. I'm afraid you're talking to Junior/Rapier's latest persona though, or someone that has very similar viewpoints to him.
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Read Barbara Tuchman's book The Guns of August. The breakout of WWI had little to do with the events in the Balkans. The assasination was just the final straw that broke the camels back. The war could have been avoided if not for arrogance and poor communication between the various European powers


Yes, I have heard of it. I have read, some of it.

However, the professor of the class that relates to this, he was a native born German. It was very interesting to see another perspective of history.

It is like a prism...
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EastisEast



Joined: 29 May 2014
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What we have here is a 6th century cult that rules and spreads by fear and violence, and exerts a virtually inescapable death-grip on its adherents. It snuffs out virtually all opposing voices and personal freedoms, it turns humans into slaves, and it sanctions cruelty and inhumanity in its holy book. It also aims to infiltrate and then dominate every land on the planet.



Really? Sounds like Christians to me.
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