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Ukraine and the Crimean War
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If "Chuck hagel" and the daily telegraph is to be believed, we may yet get an invasion.

Quote:
The Kremlin has doubled the number of troops on its border with Ukraine to 20,000 and is conducting a week of military exercises.

When you see the build-up of Russian troops and the sophistication of those troops, the training of those troops, the heavy military equipment that’s being put along that border, of course it’s a reality, it’s a threat, it’s a possibility – absolutely,” he said.

The Nato statement came hours after Russia called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council in New York to warn that the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk were “on the brink of a humanitarian disaster” and calling for the international community to “mobilise towards immediate assistance”.


hundreds of thousands of refugees have been forced into russia by indiscriminate Ukranian bombing of Donetsk. So Russia may be forced to act...
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the tensions between Russia and the West would decline significantly if the latter promised not to make Ukraine a member of NATO.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
I think the tensions between Russia and the West would decline significantly if the latter promised not to make Ukraine a member of NATO.


Yes but the position of total financial dominance of the ethnic minority oligarchs must be protected at any cost or the county will be re-Slavized, as was Russia, and lost to the global financial/media/political/economic oligarchy.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman wrote:
I think the tensions between Russia and the West would decline significantly if the latter promised not to make Ukraine a member of NATO.


Wishful thinking.

It is precisely because Putin has scored wins in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria and Crimea that he is so brazen in Ukraine.

The solution is simple for the West, simply prop up the Ukrainian economy and their military. In the long term it will hurt Russia more than anyone else, they are a small and relatively weak country.

As long as this conflict goes on it will continue to sap at the fragile facade of their economic and military power and inevitably reduce their standing. In fact the worst case scenario would be a quick resolution one way or another. The West can afford to play the long game, the Russian are not so lucky.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On that note:

http://www.dw.de/food-imports-ban-backfires-on-russias-economy/a-17888880

Quote:
The cost of banned foodstuffs started to rise days after the embargo took effect in early August. According to figures released by Russia's State Statistics Service on Wednesday, consumer prices rose by 0.1 percent last week, following a similar increase a week earlier. This trend indicates that already by the end of 2015 Russia's annual inflation rate might hit the five-year maximum of 8 percent, far above the official target set by the Russian authorities, analysts warned.
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
It is precisely because Putin has scored wins in Chechnya, Georgia, and Crimea that he is so brazen in Ukraine.


All those areas are part of the former ussr. They're part of Russias normal sphere of influence.

Quote:
The solution is simple for the West, simply prop up the Ukrainian economy and their military.


Western imperialists should not be interfering in Russias back yard.
Eastern Ukraine clearly does not want to be part of Ukraine. The only long term solution is to let them breakaway and be a buffer zone. Unless you want Russian troops eyeing Nato troops along a new DMZ for the next century or more.

Quote:
In the long term it will hurt Russia more than anyone else, they are a small and relatively weak country.


Russia small?

or do you mean Ukraine- the biggest country in Europe?
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All those areas are part of the former ussr. They're part of Russias normal sphere of influence.


If you are going to be an apologist for Russian imperialism, you should be upfront about it and so I appreciate your honesty.

Although just out of curiosity, what drives the Russia love these days? Back in the day they were commies, but now what do they stand for that you find so appealing? Is it the anti-US stance? Or anti-gay?

Quote:
Western imperialists should not be interfering in Russias back yard. Eastern Ukraine clearly does not want to be part of Ukraine. The only long term solution is to let them breakaway and be a buffer zone. Unless you want Russian troops eyeing Nato troops along a new DMZ for the next century or more.


We don't know what they want because the Russians have just steamrolled in and supported the ultra-nationalists. It is like in Crimea where 40% were non-Russian or when the Georgian population of South Ossetia were forced out, we weren't able to hear their voices over Russian threats. We cannot understand what the people want because the Russians and their proxies go straight to violence.

If they want independence they should go about it in a legitimate fashion and consult everyone that lives there, not just the ones with guns.

In anycase the longer this goes on the greater the harm to Russia.

Quote:
Russia small?


Their economy is smaller than the UK alone and their military is a shambles outside of a modernised core.

If they burn enough bridges with Europe, their only hope is to become China's pet in a hoplessly unblanced relationship.
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FriendlyDaegu



Joined: 26 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:


Although just out of curiosity, what drives the Russia love these days? Back in the day they were commies, but now what do they stand for that you find so appealing? Is it the anti-US stance? Or anti-gay?


No, it's usually an American anti-Obama thing on the right. It was common to see conservatives on TV gushing over Putin until Crimea happened, now it's dying down. The instances I remember were Limbaugh and one of those blondes on FOX News. They were trying to play into the criticism that Obama is weak and 'leads from the rear', in contrast to Putin who is a strong and fearless Christian leader. It may have also been a way of digging at McCain, the Georgian.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Although just out of curiosity, what drives the Russia love these days?


Perhaps it's a natural reaction to the utter hypocrisy and insanity (Google '7 countries in 5 years') of American foreign policy. Putin is a barrier to American-inspired 'regime change,' which is why the Western mainstream media is full of hysterical anti-Putin propaganda. We can at least be grateful to them that they put a stop to arming bearded nutcases in Syria.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Although just out of curiosity, what drives the Russia love these days?


Perhaps it's a natural reaction to the utter hypocrisy and insanity (Google '7 countries in 5 years') of American foreign policy. Putin is a barrier to American-inspired 'regime change,' which is why the Western mainstream media is full of hysterical anti-Putin propaganda. We can at least be grateful to them that they put a stop to arming bearded nutcases in Syria.


But this is particularly stupid. American foreign policy has been shameful, so let's root for Putin, who is a rival? Putin's foreign policy has been less shameful only because he is the leader of a far less capable country, and even then perhaps it's not that much less shameful. What kind of idiot bans food imports and causing food price rises on his own people.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putin is not a degenerate. He's not some prog traitor that sells out his civilization for bullshit.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no love for Putin but he is not a threat to the West.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Putin is not a degenerate. He's not some prog traitor that sells out his civilization for bullshit.


Just curious, what is your take on the whole food ban thing?
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Chaparrastique



Joined: 01 Jan 2014

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Although just out of curiosity, what drives the Russia love these days?


Perhaps it's a natural reaction to the utter hypocrisy and insanity (Google '7 countries in 5 years') of American foreign policy. Putin is a barrier to American-inspired 'regime change,' which is why the Western mainstream media is full of hysterical anti-Putin propaganda. We can at least be grateful to them that they put a stop to arming bearded nutcases in Syria.


Something like that. The transparent western hypocrisy and media propaganda.

The west is supposed to stand for certain things. But in reality their politicians are power-mad imperialists who abandon values the moment it is advantageous to do so.

Crimea held a referendum. Its blatantly obvious their majority-Russian population wanted to return to Russia. That's called democracy. Why is the west against the self-determination of an entire people?

Eastern Ukraine. A similar case. yet all the west can do is call them terrorists. No, they're a Russian population that wants to return to Russia.

Gaza. Western media is apoplectic at Israeli shelling of civilian areas. yet they support Ukranie indiscriminately shelling civilian areas (and killing hundreds of innocent civilians).

etc etc. The west are just trying to grab more territory for them to globalize into their drab spiritless PC modern societies.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The west is supposed to stand for certain things. But in reality their politicians are power-mad imperialists who abandon values the moment it is advantageous to do so.


The West wants to maintain it's power and it enters into alliances and deals with some very sketchy regimes. However, it is primarily interested in the status quo and in Europe that is especially true.

It is the Russians that are the imperialists who want to recapture former 'glory' and feel that they are entitled to rule countries that they used to own.

Quote:
Crimea held a referendum. Its blatantly obvious their majority-Russian population wanted to return to Russia. That's called democracy. Why is the west against the self-determination of an entire people?


It was a blatant sham of a referendum.

The whole thing was announced and held within a couple of weeks with armed gun men running the show. The result was 96.77% yet there are numerous sizable minorities who lived there and polling before the invasion showed support at less than 50%.

Quote:
Eastern Ukraine. A similar case. yet all the west can do is call them terrorists. No, they're a Russian population that wants to return to Russia.


Eastern Ukraine is not 100% Russian. There are large Russian speaking areas, but they are intermixed with significant numbers of Ukrainian speakers.

The reality is alas not as simple as RT would have you to believe.

Quote:
etc etc. The west are just trying to grab more territory for them to globalize into their drab spiritless PC modern societies.


Territory??? This isn't the 19th century, the West doesn't give a damn about some coal mines in Luhansk.

The world is dominated by the West by and large through its control of the global economic system. They have all the power, they don't want instability, they want to maintain the staus quo that has served their interests for so long.

It is countries like Russia that want instability and a revolution in the international order because they know as things stand they are minnows.

Kiev and the vast majority of the Ukraine are now firmly in a Western orbit thanks to Putin's ineptitude, the first Russian leader in many generations to lose Kiev.

Putin wanted to build his Russian Empire 2.0 through the customs union and forced his puppet in Kiev to sign his country over.

It was a disastrous move that has left Russia scrambling around for some poxy provinces on the eastern border

Quote:
drab spiritless PC modern societies.


Yeah nothing adds colour to a society like rampant state condoned bigotry.
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