Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Chaparrastique]

[FastForward]

[ippy]

yeah, go on then, whats the pay and hours? You dont need to list the whole thing or its location, just curious what kind of hell job it is if it only got 5 people applying. Dude, more than five people are applying for EVERY job posted up on facebook in joella. Thats a much smaller market. So yours must have been god awful.

[FastForward]

[ippy]

Yeah, not great is it? Just some thoughts though to help illustrate why i believe the lack of applicants for that position has little bearing on the actual difficulties in the overall market. Because this is your job, i dont want you to take what im saying personal. Its a discussion on the overall market and not a discussion on your contract offer. The two will intersect though im afraid, and i personally wont be entirely positive on the idea of that kind of offer. But it has no bearing on you as a manager. Its your company and your right to offer what you like. Im just trying to indicate the psychology for ME of those specific entry level pay offers. So with the caveat that this does not have an opinion on you personally or your school...

For pure entry level standard job (40 hours per week with around 25ish contact hours (breaks inc)) including benefits and all the standards for a non E2 holding applicant from outside the country with your run of the mill qualifications and perhaps a few years of ESL experience(inside, F4, E2 etc is a different world - im just talking pure entry level):

2.4 and above is deeply suspicious. I have a feeling that the recruiter is just collecting resumes on a non-existent job. If it does exist, theres something in the fine print. I would definitely apply, but id apply in the way people used to respond to those "microsoft are doing a survey on internet habits and if you complete it we'll give you 500 quid" at the dawn of the internet. They know its bull***, but whats the harm in trying (as you receive a flood of spam emails to your inbox for the next five years).

I would not expect to even receive a call back. But if i did and everything seemed legit, i would be very serious about working for this company. Its not just the salary, its the faith and value they are showing in their employees to offer a salary above market rate. So long as the contract was fair, id be incredibly excited to work with this company and help deliver on their goals. This kind of salary sends a clear signal that you as an employee are valued and respected in line with the position. Youre being paid a teacher salary so you will raise your game to hit those benchmarks and standards. Well, you will if youre not a jerk.

2.3 is a company thats paying you a good market wage. Its fair, but it errs on the side of the teacher to a degree, It tells you your employer likely looks after their employees and wants to build a genuine relationship. For similar reasons above, I would go into this contract completely satisfied and ready to build a relationship with my employer to help them build their business. Their success is my success. Again, its about faith and trust here. Its all on the right foot straight away. They expect a long term commitment, and i would expect to complete that. I would also be looking a bit further than a year with this company to see how we can both benefit from an extended relationship.

2.2 is a company thats paying you a fair market wage. Its not great, the job might have a bit more pressure to it and your boss might be a bit more likely to micro manage you or be on your case a bit. But its not by any stretch of the imagination obscene. Its fair. Its not great. But its a fair wage. Id expect the company to have turnover issues. Unless there was a bump in wages for re-signing i wouldnt expect folks to stay longer than a year or two (if its actually a nice place to work) before trading up or across. Its a roll of the dice, but odds are in your favor that things will be relatively stable and not too awful.

2.2 minus key benefits --> see 2.1

For me, 2.2 and 2.3 are realistically the jobs im going to be applying for. Its not a coincidence of course that they make up pretty much the majority of positions in the market. These are your bell-curve jobs. Both seem a fair salary, theres maybe a difference in the way i would subconsciously approach them, but id be happy to take either salary without any suspicion that i was walking into hell.

For me though, there is a big change at 2.1 (or 2.2 with no severance and self-housing). 2.1 is the bottom end of the market. This signals a huge shift in expected conditions. I would anticipate a company that is looking to treat you like a tool and 100% expendable to them. Once theyve got what they can out of you, expect to be cut free. At which point theyll just bring in someone just as happy to take that wage to replace you. These companies will have ridiculously high turnover leading to poor student behaviour through lack of consistent boundaries and defensive and aggressively overbearing management. It would take every ounce of patience i have (and i have so much patience) to make it through to the end of a contract here without trading out at the first half decent opportunity.

These jobs reflect the more cynical side of the market. They probably derive from someone who understands that there is just as much (of not more) money to be made in selling an image over an education. I would anticipate this job to be less about actual education and standards. Business growth will come from image over professionalism. I would expect they treat their teachers like objects, and their students like ATMs. Youll become a glorified babysitter, clients will kurbstomp you and your manager will make unrealistic demands whilst failing to protect you against their cash cows, resulting in a work place from hell.

Parents, who know no better, will receive almost no value for money and their kids will be left to languish in a boring micro-managed, hostile uncreative, unfulfilling environment. Teachers will hate their job and teach to the minimum level expected, whilst students will hate their class and do the minimum required. No one wins except the person treating these people like garbage and looking to rake in as much cash as possible by screwing over their clients offering them the moon on a stick and counting on their ignorance to buy it.

I wouldnt touch this job to be honest. This is a serious change in conditions. You might argue its just 100,000 less, but theres a whole psychology about this salary. It is really a lowball offer, and likely for cynical reasons. This is the nastier side of ESL teaching. Sure, not all jobs are the same, and not all employers offering 2.1 are going to be awful. But the odds are now moving significantly against them. To me, this is a massive warning light.

Id expect this workplace to be in full on siege mentality mode, with in-fighting, favoritism, gossiping, and backbiting the order of the day. Id expect the students to be acting up, disrespectful, fed up and bored (through no fault of their own). Id expect management to completely fail in addressing issues of morale and be incredibly defensive and overbearing. Because teachers will very likely hate their work, standards wont be maintained through motivation or job satisfaction, but through an aggressive, berating, and demeaning micro-management. Teachers will feel constant pressure, end up stressed, give up and end up phoning it in. And management will be continually fed up with teachers phoning it in. Its always and only going in one direction. I would expect it to be dysfunctional on almost every level. I would expect id be walking into a minefield.

Which brings us to 2.0

I remind you of the caveat above. This isnt about your job. Its about the psychology of that salary offer. As we go down the pay scale its not a coincidence that salary and conditions seem to align. There are always exceptions. And every business is different with its own pressures. Perhaps 2.0 is simply all a business can afford from such a competitive environment and being a new start up. Perhaps someone they paid handsomely screwed you over and went for the next best thing at 2.4 at short notice after the time and investment you put into their training. Perhaps the boss is the nicest person in the world. Every situation is different.

But theres a trend of worse pay leading to worse conditions and worse job fulfillment. For me, 2.1 is really where the vultures live. I would sooner stay in China at 2.1. I understand there is a downward market pressure coming from supply, but since 2.1 is base to me. Anything lower means statistically this job is both a nightmare and temporary. Its a nightmare because of the environment and failure of imagination mentioned above (the invariable cycle of mistrust and paranoia). And its temporary because im looking to trade out of it asap, and the odds are good that my employer is looking to screw me over. Whatever it is, its not good for me, and its not good for any stable business whilst the market still exists in that 2.2-2.3 place.

So thats probably why 5 people applying doesnt entirely reflect the current market situation. Had you advertised even a range (2.0-2.3 depending on experience) and did what everyone seems to be doing (show no flexibility on what youre willing to pay regardless of experience), it might be more reflective. But that is lower than the lowball 2.1 i would be incredibly reluctant to touch. Id take 2.1 but only if it was EXACTLY the location, students, and hours i wanted. I wouldnt even contemplate 2.0 because im likely going to feel compelled to quit mid contract, and no doubt my manager recognizes this, hence the punitive clauses in your contract to prevent this occurring (making it feel exactly like a micromanaged prison right from the off). Id expect clauses about recruiters fees being returned, airfare returned, deposits being taken out of my salary, and of course my pay to be given about 15 days to 1 month after it should be just to make sure that if i do skip town, you have half a months salary to find a replacement. You will of course argue that this is of course fair. But its just a cycle of mistrust and cynicism and its why psychologically, i wouldnt even consider swimming in these piranha filled seas. Id never apply for this job and i tell you this as someone who is borderline unmarketable (male, uk, late 30s). Id sooner just live in China and pick my work.

To be honest its a pity these contracts cant realistically be offered (with E2 visa) for 3-6 month contracts. It would give market flexibility and allow for teachers to take on board these kinds of salaries for short term requirements whilst they wait for more permanent positions to come up. It would mean that employers and employees would engage in things in a more trusting and open manner given that youre there to plug a hole in their business, and you need the job to plug a hole in your career. This is a perfectly equitable relationship. But when youre tied into a year contract, then all those benefits you expect are now completely up for review at around the 6 month mark when the pressures of that environment will start to really bite for both employee and employer. It perpetuates this cycle of cynicism and exploitation. Employers exploit employees with excessive demands and providing a dysfunctional and hostile work environment (driving them to quit), whilst employees exploit employers by looking for something to trade into. At this salary the perfect solution is short term contracts. The trouble is of course that suddenly every contract would be a ten month or 11 month contract to circumvent things like severance. Point is that this kind of mistrust exists far less when you get into salaries around 2.3 and 2.4. At this point my goal is to keep you happy and swimming in customers, and your goal is to keep me happy so i can help you to grow and expand your business. Its symbiotic. And develops because it starts from a point of good faith and trust. Well, perhaps thats just an ideal, but its how i look at the world.

[FastForward]

[banjois]

This place is getting sad, and I'm not talking about the country.

[GENO123]

It is about time to write off South Korea as a destination for EFL.
That is just the way it is.

[KimchiNinja]

When are you guys leaving? Soon? [fingers crossed]

[GENO123]

The secret to KimChiNinja’s "financial success" was to fly to a foreign country get married and not have kids. Actually it is a very easy proposition. which doesn’t require any expertise whatsoever.

Almost anyone could do that almost anywhere in the world

[ippy]

[KimchiNinja]

[GENO123]

ippy you make a lot of worthwhile points .

Korea is easier if one is on the "guest list" I agree. At the same time it is (much) harder if someone has others to support .

[basic69isokay]

China's the way to go.
Sure, its not amazing quite yet, but you want to get in on something before it becomes obviously good to everyone right?
Those 10,000rmb/mo jobs are bottom rung. Just like the crap jobs you see posted on the korea job board. I'm looking at a couple other sites now, plenttttttty of jobs 20,000rmb+ and thats not counting privates/extra work. Korea's a headache culturally (unless you bend over 90° as some do) but for the other 99% of us China's better financially, socially, everything. PLUS, you learn a language that's uber-useful instead of a borderline joke of a mixture of konglish, chinese, and Japanese. China's the spot of the future. Only ppl who will stay in Korea are the Stolkholms and the k-pop fans. Just like the japanophiles the only ones who stayed in Japan.

[wooden nickels]