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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
I think that basically reforming the criminal justice and welfare systems in ways that would productively engage everyone, according to their ability, on work projects aimed at improving infrastructure, environment and other socially beneficial stuff would enable more poor people in general and blacks in particular to maintain good families. |
Rteacher has a good point here. Family disintegration seems to produce bad social results, but mass incarceration promotes family disintegration, so if one wishes to reverse the former, resolving the latter would be wise. Likewise, the trends we're seeing with regards to human labor being increasingly devalued are only going to grow more severe in time, so the sooner we move to a system which allows people to maintain a basic standard of living independent of their ability to economically compete, the more humane the results will be. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe a conversation about race could touch on the 400-year history of violence and plunder directed towards blacks, including most recently red-lining and predatory lending, and of course it could also briefly mention what happened in South Carolina. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
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| Clearly the collapse of the nuclear family and the proliferation of single mothers in the black community is the key problem and probably the most difficult to address. |
That's pretty interesting as I've seen a couple of posts on facebook recently claiming that single mothers in Korea are treated terribly. Perhaps remaining critical of single mothers is an important way for Korea to avoid the mistakes made in many countries in the west. |
Reminds me of Chris Rock's bit when talking about single motherhood- "Just because it can be done, doesn't mean you should do it. You can drive a car with your feet if you have to. Doesn't mean it should be done." |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A follow up to the Moynihan report |
Clearly the collapse of the nuclear family and the proliferation of single mothers in the black community is the key problem and probably the most difficult to address. |
I think that basically reforming the criminal justice and welfare systems in ways that would productively engage everyone, according to their ability, on work projects aimed at improving infrastructure, environment and other socially beneficial stuff would enable more poor people in general and blacks in particular to maintain good families. |
That coupled with restricting immigration of low-skilled immigration so blacks don't have to compete with foreigners for such jobs would be a good idea. But what you are also dealing with is fifty years of social decline, which is much harder to reverse. |
Well, migrant farm workers (and maybe landscapers) from Mexico should have legal status short of full citizenship, while the government-sponsored projects should be for citizens only. As far as immigration policy as a whole, highly skilled workers from abroad can be favored over low-skilled applicants when there is more need for them here - but that will change in time; and people who sincerely want to come to the U.S. for a better chance of happiness for their families should be allowed to (after security screening) in the spirit of what's engraved on the Statue of Liberty... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| I said it symbolized his motivation, as you yourself acknowledge ("he aligned his beliefs with the flag"). |
No, those statements are not equivalent, which is why the hysterical cries of "It's a symbol of hatred of racism!" are ridiculous. A minority of individuals carry the flag as banners of hatred, just as they nearly always do with the American flag. (Curiously, their counterparts in extremism similarly equate the two.) This, of course, says nothing at all of the majority of flag-bearers who reject and condemn these bigoted associations and instead insist that it is a symbol of their heritage and history. Indeed, this must certainly be true, as I'm aware of no more recognizable - apparently internationally, as well - symbol of the South.
Have I met rednecks who use it to intimidate minorities? Absolutely. I've met a great many more rednecks, however, who display it with no more ill intent than as a rejection of what they see as federal overreach and as a snub to the North, and it's maddening that they're being shouted over, demonized as the same bigots they themselves dismiss, and plundered of their cultural icons. The racist supremacists want it for their own, and the fanatical Left is more then willing to oblige, providing them with ever more material with which to publish nonsense articles in service to their new progressive religion. The Walmart bans, Dukes of Hazzard shutdown, Apple store withdrawals, and all the reactionary insanity sure to follow are not merely examples of this having gotten out of hand, but are rather natural manifestations of the ideology being given more voice than calmer times normally allow. Intent, it would appear, is now little more than just a word in the dictionary.
Growing up where I did, Confederate symbols meant little more to me than what jackass Ole Miss fans used to identify themselves, and I was more than happy to taunt them in their defeat when the university forced them to become Black Bears. Now I dread that the mockery will soon be returned in kind.
| Quote: |
| In any event, others such as Plain Meaning, Fox, and Ta-Nehisi Coates have elaborated and more eloquently expressed what I meant, so I'll just leave it at that. |
You meant to make ahistorical and disingenuous comments, not simply poorly reasoned ones? |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A follow up to the Moynihan report |
Clearly the collapse of the nuclear family and the proliferation of single mothers in the black community is the key problem and probably the most difficult to address. |
I think that basically reforming the criminal justice and welfare systems in ways that would productively engage everyone, according to their ability, on work projects aimed at improving infrastructure, environment and other socially beneficial stuff would enable more poor people in general and blacks in particular to maintain good families. |
That coupled with restricting immigration of low-skilled immigration so blacks don't have to compete with foreigners for such jobs would be a good idea. But what you are also dealing with is fifty years of social decline, which is much harder to reverse. |
Nothing operates in a vacuum. Both reports I sited spoke of institutional barriers. Both reports said to strengthen the black family, jobs for the male so he could be head of the house was the cure. In the '60s black males were excluded from all but the most menial jobs in mainstream.
Those institutional barriers are still there. Law enforcement, housing discrimination (Chicago for example is extremely bad), education, pretty much all the institutions and there are a few studies that show that two resumes with the same experience and education but one had a europpean vs. a black sounding name the black sounding name got called back several times less than the european -souinding name. Black college grads have the highest unemployment amongst all college grads. Definitely there are internal issues, blacks could and should be doing but why make it harder with systemic and institutional barriers? Remove those and I'll join in on bashing blacks for not succeeding more.
Urban unemployment could be solved easily as Rteacher suggested with massive infrastructure spending which is desperately needed. Its a win - win. We have to ask Congress why they don't want to. It would help all poor. There are tons of infrastructure issues for West Virginia, Kentucky, etc.
And we haven't restricted immigration. We let in millions of latinos illegally. Thats by design. No one asks why Bush who had all 3 branches of government under GOP control for 6 years from 2000-2006 and with 9/11 as a great reason, didn't do one thing to secure the border? None. Why? America needs the cheap labor. Blacks are no longer cheap. Americanized latinos are no longer cheap. Cheap european immigrants went out a century ago. Legal immigration are for high skilled niches we can't fill here such as computer programmers from India and Pakistan and nowadays Russia.
The cheap labor, now latino is brought in because America has a zero population growth. Well, white america has a zero population growth, black population growth is slightly positive.
America is looking at a huge issue because not enough workers can pay for the baby boomers who will be in retirement. So, we need new workers to pay for their social security. Illegal immigrants actually pay into the system to a large extent.
Anyway, all this is a deflection. The 9 people in that church were killed by a guy who believes like a scary percentage of Americans do. While they may not go and kill 9 people, the sentiment is shared by..hmm..my guess? about a quarter to one third. Its not as fringe as we like to think.
The fact is this. 100% of Blacks could be model citizens tomorrow and it won't matter socially. That's a fact that no one wants to admit to. I've always been a bit too brutally honest for my own good and I like to strip away the layers to get to the real truths. Now if thats the truth. What's the 'solution'? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| I said it symbolized his motivation, as you yourself acknowledge ("he aligned his beliefs with the flag"). |
No, those statements are not equivalent, which is why the hysterical cries of "It's a symbol of hatred of racism!" are ridiculous. A minority of individuals carry the flag as banners of hatred, just as they nearly always do with the American flag. (Curiously, their counterparts in extremism similarly equate the two.) This, of course, says nothing at all of the majority of flag-bearers who reject and condemn these bigoted associations and instead insist that it is a symbol of their heritage and history. Indeed, this must certainly be true, as I'm aware of no more recognizable - apparently internationally, as well - symbol of the South.
Have I met rednecks who use it to intimidate minorities? Absolutely. I've met a great many more rednecks, however, who display it with no more ill intent than as a rejection of what they see as federal overreach and as a snub to the North, and it's maddening that they're being shouted over, demonized as the same bigots they themselves dismiss, and plundered of their cultural icons. The racist supremacists want it for their own, and the fanatical Left is more then willing to oblige, providing them with ever more material with which to publish nonsense articles in service to their new progressive religion. The Walmart bans, Dukes of Hazzard shutdown, Apple store withdrawals, and all the reactionary insanity sure to follow are not merely examples of this having gotten out of hand, but are rather natural manifestations of the ideology being given more voice than calmer times normally allow. Intent, it would appear, is now little more than just a word in the dictionary.
Growing up where I did, Confederate symbols meant little more to me than what jackass Ole Miss fans used to identify themselves, and I was more than happy to taunt them in their defeat when the university forced them to become Black Bears. Now I dread that the mockery will soon be returned in kind.
| Quote: |
| In any event, others such as Plain Meaning, Fox, and Ta-Nehisi Coates have elaborated and more eloquently expressed what I meant, so I'll just leave it at that. |
You meant to make ahistorical and disingenuous comments, not simply poorly reasoned ones? |
I'm from the south, so I have seen my fair share of confederate flags, and heard way more than my fair share of the heritage not hate spiel. I agree that people who argue that it is always a symbol of racial hatred probably have not spent a lot of time around places where it is flown. In my experience I have met a small number of genuinely hateful racists who have flown the flag, but a much larger number of self declared rednecks who fly it, or wear it on their shirts, or have it somehow on their truck, who have what I would call 'ignorant' views on race. Meaning that while they are friends with the black guy on the football team, they don't understand why he doesn't laugh at their n***** jokes or they say stupid things with no real ill-intent. I went to High School in an overwhelmingly white place, so maybe they really did not know better.
As far as this heritage thing, that is about as noble as calling imperial Japan a part of Japanese heritage and using it as an excuse to fly the rising sun flag on the Japanese parliament. The South lost a war fighting for an ignoble cause. It is almost appropriate that flying the flag has become seen as a mark of a lack of culture. The flag has never offended me, its not a southern thing, its a redneck thing that politicians use to baldly pander to a certain constituency. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:32 am Post subject: |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/27/us/thousands-gather-for-funeral-of-clementa-pinckney-in-charleston.html?_r=0
| Quote: |
President Obama eulogized the Rev. Clementa C. Pinckney on Friday by calling on the nation to emulate the grace that he displayed in his work and that the people of South Carolina demonstrated after the massacre of nine worshipers at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.
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Mr. Obama joined with others paying tribute in stressing that the 21-year-old white man charged in the killings had failed to achieve his stated goal of inciting racial conflagration. Rather, he said, the killings had the opposite effect, generating an unprecedented show of racial unity and inspiring a nationwide revolt against Confederate symbols.
“It was an act that drew on a long history of bombs and arson and shots fired at churches,” Mr. Obama said, “not random, but as a means of control, a way to terrorize and oppress, an act that he imagined would incite fear and recrimination, violence and suspicion, an act that he presumed would deepen divisions that trace back to our nation’s original sin.”
He paused for effect. “Oh, but God works in mysterious ways,” Mr. Obama said. “God has different ideas. He didn’t know he was being used by God.” The crowd erupted in applause as women waved their hands toward the ceiling.
Mr. Obama commended South Carolina’s Republican governor, Nikki R. Haley, for her call this week to bring down the Confederate flag in Columbia, saying it would be “a meaningful balm for so many unhealed wounds.”
“Removing the flag from this state’s Capitol would not be an act of political correctness,” Mr. Obama said. “It would not be an insult to the valor of Confederate soldiers. It would simply be an acknowledgment that the cause for which they fought — the cause of slavery — was wrong. The imposition of Jim Crow after the Civil War, the resistance to civil rights for all people, was wrong.” |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Very condescending, political speech by Obama. I expected better. Differnt style and context of rhetoric when it was Sandy Hook. He's obviously placating to his base. |
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