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How accurate are the black lists?
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GirlFromMars



Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Corea do Sul

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 3:27 pm    Post subject: How accurate are the black lists? Reply with quote

I've noticed Mido school on some black/grey lists but nothing dated this year. Should I still avoid it? Also, why are so many allegedly blacklisted schools turning up on "white" lists, do they pay to be on there? It's hard to know what to believe.
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Gord



Joined: 25 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of schools end up on "black lists" because a teacher who was "fired for no reason" because it's impossible to be fired for no reason, and they go around "getting even".
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kimcheeking
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord wrote:
A lot of schools end up on "black lists" because a teacher who was "fired for no reason" because it's impossible to be fired for no reason, and they go around "getting even".


Come on Gord, you know that it happens. People do get fired so that owners do not have to pay severence pay... Why else would people be fired in the 9th, 10th, or 11th month. If the person is a bad teacher they would have been fired before that.
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rudyflyer



Joined: 26 Feb 2003
Location: pacing the cage

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mido has a well deserved reputation on the blacklists even though they may not have had any posts recently trust me they are still up to their old tricks based on word on the street
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Gord



Joined: 25 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kimcheeking wrote:
Come on Gord, you know that it happens. People do get fired so that owners do not have to pay severence pay... Why else would people be fired in the 9th, 10th, or 11th month. If the person is a bad teacher they would have been fired before that.

I can think of two examples that I've seen first hand in the last year.

One guy, an Australian, started the same day I did. He worked for one entire day before moving into a bar, never to be seen from again. A month later he phones up demanding a month's salary because he was never fired (thus must still be on the payroll), and threatens to phone the labour board and toss the name of the school on every blacklist he can find.

The labour board people made a phone call, got told what really happened (he claimed he worked for an entire month and never got paid), and that was the end of it.

Another example was a guy from one of the huge Korean hogwan chains. He was making a power play to get into management as he was tired of being a teacher and doing a whole of lot uncool things to make himself look good.

The school had enough and fired him after one specific incident where started telling the new teachers that he as the "head teacher" and must address him as such. So he goes off on a tirade here on Dave's posting under a bunch of different names saying he was fired without reason and how he was a victim and the best teacher in the world.

In comparison, I don't know of anyone who was fired magically in their last month. Everyone I know either got their severance, or they left before on their own accord.

I'm not saying firing to save money doesn't happen, but it's far less of an issue that it's made out to be.
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rudyflyer



Joined: 26 Feb 2003
Location: pacing the cage

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gord you have blinders on. Just read the cases mentioned here. igotthisguitar is a prime example I know of and I could go on just do a search here. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and quit telling people that it doesn't.

come on you've been here long enough to know better.
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the_beaver



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord wrote:
In comparison, I don't know of anyone who was fired magically in their last month. Everyone I know either got their severance, or they left before on their own accord.

I'm not saying firing to save money doesn't happen, but it's far less of an issue that it's made out to be.


Happened to me in my second-last month.
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Gord



Joined: 25 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyflyer wrote:
gord you have blinders on. Just read the cases mentioned here. igotthisguitar is a prime example I know of and I could go on just do a search here. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and quit telling people that it doesn't.


A school is far more likely, in my opinion and experience, to be on a blacklist because of ANGST BABY ANGST from a teacher than from actual merrit.


Quote:
come on you've been here long enough to know better.


I never said it "does not happen", but rather it's a far less common event than you are suggesting it is to be. You're suggesting that because a few people have complained "they didn't get paid", (and you are accepting their claims at complete face value, I might add[), that everyone won't get paid.

One girl I know is a recruiter who usually stays in contact with the teachers she brings over. Add in she brings over about ten teachers a month. In the year and half I've known her (and asking about these scenarios that pop up as I'm curious), she knew of one case in which the teacher complained they were going to be fired and not get their severance. Turns out in that one case the teacher was a complete ass and started doing things like showing up late for work, personal hygiene had gone to hell, and basically was of the opinion "I've been here too long, they won't fire me."

I even know two people personally who completed their contracts in the last couple weeks who got their severance without any sort of issue.

But where is the fun in posting "OMG! I GOT PAID AND EVERYTHING!"? Yes, that's the first thing I would do after working at a school without any major issues. Rolling Eyes
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Stunted Wookie



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Sound Studio

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 8:04 pm    Post subject: info Reply with quote

If you have any information why not post it on the new 'Veracity Review' site?
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William Beckerson
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I dont think it's as much a load of crap that Gord thinks, I do feel that black-lists can be (and are) easily abused for whatever petty reason that may come up.

I figure that if a school has one or two complaints against it, it's best to ignore the blacklist until further support comes in. If you see the hagwon's (hagwon, not chain) name again and again, then you can pretty much take the blacklist to be spot on.
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mack the knife



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you, RFR, for being the voice of reason on this issue. while both sides in this case (gord vs. the mods et al) have raised valid points, the fact of the matter is that most schools will eventually be "blacklisted" (read--"bad-mouthed) derservedly or not (through the internet or via word of mouth).

if we were to believe every single negative story about every single school at face value, we would never work in korea again and neither would anyone else. on the other hand, if we ignore the stories of fear and loathing, we (and especially newbies) will probably get suckered into working for shifty schools.

if i hear a story from 1 teacher about a school, my eyebrows raise. two stories, from 2 different teachers, and i shake my head. three stories, and i start warning folks about the place...
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Butterfly



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: How accurate are the black lists? Reply with quote

GirlFromMars wrote:
I've noticed Mido school on some black/grey lists but nothing dated this year. Should I still avoid it? Also, why are so many allegedly blacklisted schools turning up on "white" lists, do they pay to be on there? It's hard to know what to believe.


Yeah, I would say to ignore black or white lists for the most part. I remember my school was put on a blacklist once, when my boss is quite simply the best I've ever had, and the teacher who put the school on there was sick at least once a week, always late, hated Koreans and told his students so and never prepared for class. Make yourself a valuable commodity to any organization and usually won't give you any reason to put them on a blacklist.
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Howard Roark



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think there are just as many bad teachers in korea as there are bad schools. i wouldn't put much stock into the blacklists. you have no idea who these people are or what their motivation is.
another thing to keep in mind is that hagwans can change hands over night. the owners of my first school were pretty slimy but they sold the school 2 months into my contract and the new owners were wonderful people and i loved working there.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about blacklists. Most of the ones I've seen are so old and out-dated that you can't be sure about them. I still think the job information journal is probably a better place to check.

And aside from that, doing a search on this forum for past articles about a school or chain will usually bring up something.

And when all else fails, talk to the teachers who are/were there.

It's still a crap shoot no matter what anyone says. You never know if you will be the first teacher that the school decides to give the axe because a couple of kids' parents complained. Shocked

Cheers
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William Beckerson
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2003 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only problem that I've observed from talking with the employees are twofold:

1) The boss is usually standing right next to them so they cant be honest with you.
2)They may not give a damn about you since they're leaving soon. So they wont be honest with you.

Some Waygug-in is right, it is a crap-shoot.
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