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The EU and China and what they are really about.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:
Thomas L. Friedman wrote:
North Korea's nuclear program could be stopped tomorrow by the country that provides roughly half of North Korea's energy and one-third of its food supplies - and that is China.

All China has to say to Kim Jong Il is: "You will shut down your nuclear weapons program and put all your reactors under international inspection, or we will turn off your lights, cut off your heat and put your whole country on a diet. Have we made ourselves clear?" One thing we know about China - it knows how to play hardball when it wants to, and if China played hardball that way with North Korea, the proliferation threat from Pyongyang would be over.

Ditto Europe vis-à-vis Iran. If the European Union said to the Iranians: "You will shut down your nuclear weapons program and put all your reactors and related facilities under international inspection or you will face a total economic boycott from Europe. Which part of this sentence don't you understand?" Trust me, that is the kind of explicit threat that would get Tehran's attention. Short of that, the Iranians will *beep* over their nuclear carpets forever.

So why haven't China and the E.U. said these things? "Like that girl with the brussels sprouts," Mr. Mandelbaum said, "the Chinese and the Europeans are all for combating nuclear proliferation - just not enough actually to do something about it."


Actually Mr. Friedman is 100% correct.

By the same token, Israel's nuclear program could be stopped tomorrow by the US. All the US has to say to Israel is: "You will shut down your nuclear weapons program and put all your reactors under international inspection, or we will cut off all military aid and freeze all bank accounts held by Israeli corporations and citizens in the US. Have we made ourselves clear?"

Why haven't they done it? To paraphrase Mr. Mandelbaum, the US is just like that girl with the brussels sprouts. The US is all for combating nuclear proliferation - just not enough actually to do something about it.




There is one difference. Israel isn't out to get Iran, they even had good relations w/ Iran when the Shah was in power. . Iran on the other hand is commited to desroying Israel and even thinks about riding out a nuclear exchange with Israel, Iran is even hunts down Jews in other countries.

There is a difference.

Nor is Israel a police state like NK.

India having nuclear weapons isn't a bad thing, even France having nuclear weapons isn't a bad thing. Iran or North Korea having nuclear weapons is.


But tell me MOS why If Israel is to be forced give up its nuclear weapons then why shouldn't France be forced to?

Hans Blix suggested a freeze Israel might go along but Iran probably wouldn't.

As for the US I am all in favor of the US giving up its nuclear weapons , but only if every other nation in the world were to do so and there would be a way to verify it . Unfortunately such a ban could not be verified 100% and if the US were to disarm then a nation could gain a strategic advantage over the US with just 50 or so nuclear weapons.You can't disinvent the bomb.


The next best thing is to keep it away from nations under the control of outlaws like Khamani or Kim Jong Il. A nations behavior and their intentions should be what determines if they should be allowed to posses nuclear weapons.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

The US can choose the role of leader or just be reactionary. If we don't want nuclear proliferation, then it's a bit hypocritical for us to say we're going to continue to develop nuclear weapons.

We already have more than enough anyway.

Iran is not Saddam's Iraq. No, I don't agree with you about Iran because I know of no war that they are waging nor designs for Middle East conquest.

If invading Iraq wasn't about WMD, then it was a mistake if it means that we allowed "rogue states" to develop WMD while we were busy invading Iraq.

I'm glad the Iraqi people are free, but nuclear war trumps that objective.

If Iran and NK already had WMD way before Bush was in office, then we should have been dealing with them and not going on a hunch after Saddam.

Iraq was a war of convenience. Are we safer? From WMD? No.

Looking at what is happening in NK and Iran, not at all.

But the blame falls on Europe and China?

I'm not saying there's nothing they can do, but it's seriously wrong-headed to say that the US has done what it can, while it's equally obvious that they have aggravated the situation.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But the blame falls on Europe and China?

I'm not saying there's nothing they can do, but it's seriously wrong-headed to say that the US has done what it can, while it's equally obvious that they have aggravated the situation.



I don't disagree at all with the point about the US aggravating the situation.

Lots of countries seem to want a more multipolar world. Fine by me. It would act to restrain wingnuts like the NeoCons. But to get there, the EU and China must shoulder some burden: diplomatically, economically and militarily. If they were proactive they could offer something healthy and positive to the world, not something negative like anti-Americanism. I believe Kerry lost because he offered nothing but "I'm notBush".
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No, I don't agree with you about Iran because I know of no war that they are waging nor designs for Middle East conquest.


Well then I hope you are aware of the other side of the story.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040119-120218-8483r

Outside View: Iran's terror goes unchecked
By Aaron Mannes
A UPI Outside View commentary


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2843289.stm

the deadly bombing of a Jewish community centre in the city in 1994


Concept of Export of Revolution

http://countrystudies.us/iran/100.htm


Iran¡¯s Policy on Terrorism in the 1990s

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=47

Iran and the Khobar tower bombings

Quote:


These findings follow a Commission staff report, released in June, which suggested that al-Qaeda may have collaborated with Hezbollah and its Iranian sponsors in the 1996 bombing of the Khobar Towers, a key American military barracks in Saudi Arabia. Previously, the attack had been attributed only to Hezbollah, with Iranian suppor


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,664967,00.html



Dissident assassinations outside Iran

Quote:
Iran
Iran remained the premier state sponsor of terrorism in 1996. It continued to be involved in the planning and execution of terrorist acts by its own agents and by surrogates such as Lebanese Hizballah and continued to fund and train known terrorist groups.

Tehran conducted at least eight dissident assassinations outside Iran in 1996. In May 1996 Reza Mazlouman, a government official under the Shah, was murdered in Paris by an Iranian resident of Germany with alleged ties to Iran's Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS). The suspect was extradited to France by Germany. Seven other dissidents were assassinated by Iran in 1996 in Turkey and northern Iraq. Iran's primary targets are members of the regime's main opposition groups, the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK) and the Kurdish Democratic Party of Iran (KDPI), as well as former officials of the late Shah's government who speak out against the clerical regime.

Iran continued to provide support-including money, weapons, and training-to a variety of terrorist groups, such as Hizballah, HAMAS, and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ). It continued to oppose any recognition of Israel and to encourage violent rejection of the Middle East peace process. For example, Iranian Vice President Habibi met with HAMAS leaders in Damascus and praised their successful efforts immediately following the February bombings in Israel. HAMAS claimed responsibility for two more bombings in Israel the following week.

During a routine customs inspection of an Iranian vessel in Antwerp in March, Belgian authorities discovered a disassembled mortar-like weapon hidden in a shipment of pickles. The shipment was consigned to an Iranian merchant living in Germany. Iranian dissidents claim that the mortar was intended for use in an assassination attempt against Iranian exiles in Europe.

Testimony in the three-year-long trial of an Iranian and four Lebanese for the Iran-sponsored killing of Iranian Kurdish dissidents in Berlin's Mykonos restaurant in 1992 concluded in late 1996. German authorities issued an arrest warrant in March for Ali Fallahian, Iran's Intelligence Minister. In the fall, former Iranian President Abolhassan Bani Sadr and two other witnesses testified against Iran. In final statements in late November, German prosecutors charged Iranian Supreme Leader Khamenei and Iranian President Rafsanjani with approving the operation. (Guilty verdicts for four of the accused were announced in April 1997.)

Iranian leaders have consistently denied being able to revoke the fatwa against Salman Rushdie's life, in effect for nearly eight years, claiming that revocation is impossible because the author of the fatwa is deceased. There is no indication that Tehran is pressuring the 15 Khordad Foundation to withdraw the $2 million reward it is offering to anyone who will kill Rushdie.




Quote:
July 13, 1991

Japanese Translator of Rushdie Book Found Slain
By STEVEN R. WEISMAN
OKYO, July 12 -- The Japanese translator of "The Satanic Verses," by Salman Rushdie, was found slain today at a university northeast of Tokyo.


http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/04/18/specials/rushdie-translator.html



Quote:
Subsequently, Rushdie lived in constant fear for his life, guarded by British security police. In 1991, his Japanese translator Hitoshi Igarashi was stabbed and killed in Tokyo, and his Italian translator was beaten and stabbed in Milan. In 1993, his Norwegian publisher William Nygaard was shot and severely injured in Oslo.

Khomeini died shortly after issuing the fatwa. In 1998 Iran stated that it is no longer pursuing such, however this was again reversed in early 2005 by the present Ayatollah, Ali Khamenei.



http://www.answers.com/topic/fatwa


Posted on 03/12/2003 9:54:15 AM PST by William McKinley


Quote:
RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran¡¯s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

"If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world", Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani told the crowd at the traditional Friday prayers in Tehran.

Analysts said not only Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani¡¯s speech was the strongest against Israel, but also this is the first time that a prominent leader of the Islamic Republic openly suggests the use of nuclear weapon against the Jewish State.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/863049/posts


Quote:
Khomeini fatwa 'led to killing of 30,000 in Iran'
By Christina Lamb, Diplomatic Correspondent
(Filed: 04/02/2001)

CHILDREN as young as 13 were hanged from cranes, six at a time, in a barbaric two-month purge of Iran's prisons on the direct orders of Ayatollah Khomeini, according to a new book by his former deputy.

More than 30,000 political prisoners were executed in the 1988 massacre - a far larger number than previously suspected. Secret documents smuggled out of Iran reveal that, because of the large numbers of necks to be broken, prisoners were loaded onto forklift trucks in groups of six and hanged from cranes in half-hourly intervals.

Gruesome details are contained in the memoirs of Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, The Memoirs of Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri, one of the founders of the Islamic regime. He was once considered Khomeini's anointed successor, but was deposed for his outspokenness, and is now under house arrest in the holy city of Qom.

Published privately last month after attempts by the regime to suppress it, the revelations have prompted demands from Iranian exiles for those involved to be tried for crimes against humanity. The most damning of the letters and documents published in the book is Khomeini's fatwa decree calling for all Mojahedin (as opponents of the Iranian regime are known) to be killed.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/02/04/wiran04.xml


http://www.brookings.edu/comm/policybriefs/pb87.htm
America and Iran: From Containment to Coexistence
by Suzanne Maloney
August 2001

http://www.brookings.edu/comm/policybriefs/pb87.htm


Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Thu May 12, 2005 9:19 am; edited 3 times in total
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hypnotist



Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Lots of countries seem to want a more multipolar world. Fine by me. It would act to restrain wingnuts like the NeoCons. But to get there, the EU and China must shoulder some burden: diplomatically, economically and militarily. If they were proactive they could offer something healthy and positive to the world, not something negative like anti-Americanism. I believe Kerry lost because he offered nothing but "I'm notBush".


Almost all the progress in the Iran situation has come from the Europeans sitting down with the Iranians and getting them to make agreements, whilst Bush shouts about them being part of the Axis of Evil and generally offers no engagement at all.

Now, perhaps the Iranians never intended to reach a compromise, or perhaps Bush is determined to make sure they don't, but either way you can hardly say the Europeans aren't trying.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
The US can choose the role of leader or just be reactionary. If we don't want nuclear proliferation, then it's a bit hypocritical for us to say we're going to continue to develop nuclear weapons.


I see your point there, even if I don't agree with it 100%
Quote:

We already have more than enough anyway.


Not of the small ones but I would be willing to trade them off.

Quote:
Iran is not Saddam's Iraq. No, I don't agree with you about Iran because I know of no war that they are waging nor designs for Middle East conquest.


Please see above

Quote:
If invading Iraq wasn't about WMD, then it was a mistake if it means that we allowed "rogue states" to develop WMD while we were busy invading Iraq.


I see your point. Please note that the US was in a bad situation with the mid east. Getting rid of Saddam did solve problems for the US for not only in Iraq but in Saudi Arabia too.

Quote:
I'm glad the Iraqi people are free, but nuclear war trumps that objective.


That is a valid point.

Quote:
If Iran and NK already had WMD way before Bush was in office, then we should have been dealing with them and not going on a hunch after Saddam.


Valid point

Quote:
Iraq was a war of convenience. Are we safer? From WMD? No.


that is also valid criticism.



Quote:
But the blame falls on Europe and China?


See Ya Ta's point

Quote:
I'm not saying there's nothing they can do, but it's seriously wrong-headed to say that the US has done what it can, while it's equally obvious that they have aggravated the situation.[


The US was trying to do something about both of them when Clinton was in office. Europe opposed US sanctions on Iran in the 1990s when there was more chance to do something about Irans nuclear weapons.

While I don't agree with everything I do
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hypnotist wrote:
[

Almost all the progress in the Iran situation has come from the Europeans sitting down with the Iranians and getting them to make agreements, whilst Bush shouts about them being part of the Axis of Evil and generally offers no engagement at all.
Now, perhaps the Iranians never intended to reach a compromise, or perhaps Bush is determined to make sure they don't, but either way you can hardly say the Europeans aren't trying.


that is not so the US has been willing to drop sanctions unfreeze assets and offer security guarantees evne offer Iran WTO membership.


The Iran quagmire

Quote:
THE latest series of concessions offered by the USA in return for Iran freezing its nuclear programme, and the events surrounding it, are not sitting well with Tehran. Washington recently announced it would drop objections to Iran joining the WTO in addition to allowing it access to spare parts for its civilian aircraft. Far from accepting the gesture as a significant policy shift, Tehran has brushed aside its importance, saying WTO membership is every country¡¯s right and sanctions affecting its broken-down civilian fleet were ¡°unfair to begin with.¡± Iran also maintains it has yet to see substantial incentives in talks with the EU.


http://nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2005/15/editorials3.php
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hypnotist



Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

that is not so the US has been willing to drop sanctions unfreeze assets and offer security guarantees evne offer Iran WTO membership.


But those are unrelated issues. Iran quite reasonably wants to be able to generate nuclear energy. They may or may not want nuclear weapons as well - given Bush and the neocons have constantly hinted that they are next on the list, I can't say I blame them (although I would be deeply concerned if they actually got them).

The EU has, quite rightly, been engaging with Iran on how Iran can safely become nuclear-powered without becoming a nuclear power, if indeed there is any way to do so.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the reformers were in power Iran there wouldn't be the problems between the US and Iran that there are . Iran has trouble with the US because Iran's government is vicious and because supreme leader Ali Khamani is a fascist terrorist bigot , not much different from Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden.

by the way I don't think military action against Iran is a good idea (even though the govt there deserves it ) because I don't want to turn Iran's population against the US.
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Zing! Well played, sir.


Thank you. I couldn't resist. Laughing

Kuros,

Hey! Are you in Daegu? How come you weren't at the Daegu ESLCafe gathering last weekend? Sad
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Almost all the progress in the Iran situation has come from the Europeans sitting down with the Iranians and getting them to make agreements, whilst Bush shouts about them being part of the Axis of Evil and generally offers no engagement at all.

Now, perhaps the Iranians never intended to reach a compromise, or perhaps Bush is determined to make sure they don't, but either way you can hardly say the Europeans aren't trying.


You are absolutely right. I think it's a good thing they are taking leadership on this issue. I just think they could do much more.

Iran is a good opportunity for Europe to show some leadership. It would be extremely difficult for the US to deal with this issue with Iran. The US has troops on every side of Iran now. From Iran's perspective, that must be un-nerving. I think a 3rd party could play a very constructive role. Kinda like 'good cop, bad cop'.
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