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Thank God(dess). Bert and Ernie arrested for sodomy.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flakfizer and wannago are right. Dobson does have the right to tell us how he thinks we should live. It's called free speech.

The danger is when zealots like him get enough power to start legislating how we must live.
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R. S. Refugee wrote:
flakfizer and wannago are right. Dobson does have the right to tell us how he thinks we should live. It's called free speech.

The danger is when zealots like him get enough power to start legislating how we must live.


Which is what is happening.
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's funny is that when Christians complain about Hollywood movies or some of the prime time television programming, the answer from others is always, "If you don't like it, don't watch it." Pretty good advice, really. But here we have Dogbert complaining about a guy most people have not heard of and is not even on TV but can basically be heard only on Christian radio stations. Oh no! The Christian voice is taking over!
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flakfizer wrote:
What's funny is that when Christians complain about Hollywood movies or some of the prime time television programming, the answer from others is always, "If you don't like it, don't watch it." Pretty good advice, really. But here we have Dogbert complaining about a guy most people have not heard of and is not even on TV but can basically be heard only on Christian radio stations. Oh no! The Christian voice is taking over!


My guess it that dogbert is concerned about a much larger movement than just this one guy on the radio, Dobson.

And let's get one thing straight here, flakie. This is not "The" Christian voice. That would be a gross distortion and I think you're smart enough to know that. I go to a progressive church where the minister gives sermons about the rise of "Christian" fascism, and I assure you Dobson represents a very distorted prespective on Christianity to him.

So, it is more appropriate and honest (which I'm sure is something you value) to say a Christian fundamentalist voice or whatever you think is a non-prejudicial polite term for that flavor. Obviously, I know you're not going to call them Christian rightwingers or something impolite sounding like that, but you mis-represent and mis-characterize the millions of Christians who are embarassed and ashamed of the fact that such intolerant folks even call themselves Christians when use the article "The" in this context.
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R. S. Refugee wrote:
flakfizer wrote:
What's funny is that when Christians complain about Hollywood movies or some of the prime time television programming, the answer from others is always, "If you don't like it, don't watch it." Pretty good advice, really. But here we have Dogbert complaining about a guy most people have not heard of and is not even on TV but can basically be heard only on Christian radio stations. Oh no! The Christian voice is taking over!


My guess it that dogbert is concerned about a much larger movement than just this one guy on the radio, Dobson.

And let's get one thing straight here, flakie. This is not "The" Christian voice. That would be a gross distortion and I think you're smart enough to know that. I go to a progressive church where the minister gives sermons about the rise of "Christian" fascism, and I assure you Dobson represents a very distorted prespective on Christianity to him.

So, it is more appropriate and honest (which I'm sure is something you value) to say a Christian fundamentalist voice or whatever you think is a non-prejudicial polite term for that flavor. Obviously, I know you're not going to call them Christian rightwingers or something impolite sounding like that, but you mis-represent and mis-characterize the millions of Christians who are embarassed and ashamed of the fact that such intolerant folks even call themselves Christians when use the article "The" in this context.


"The" was capitalized simply because it started the sentence. I wasn't implying that Dobson or "these types" as Dogbert called them, are "the" Christian voice. I was stessing "christian voice" as opposed to the much bigger and powerful "secular voice." Many Christians and sometimes Jews and other conservatives have complained about movies and programming and they are always told, "If you don't like it, don't watch it." To me that advice make sense. So my point is that whether it is "a" christian voice or "the" christian voice, if you don't like that voice, don't listen. There are oodles and oodles of entertainment, media etc. out there that one can enjoy without hearing any mention of God (other than swearing).
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you related to the man? Why does my criticism of him wound you so?

FYI, he is not heard just mainly on Christian stations; he's all over mainstream talk radio as well.

And true, I don't have to listen to him --- and I usually do not.

But what a facile quip that ignores the main point, which R.S. Refugee has been kind enough to illustrate more eloquently than I could.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flakfizer wrote:


"The" was capitalized simply because it started the sentence. I wasn't implying that Dobson or "these types" as Dogbert called them, are "the" Christian voice. I was stessing "christian voice" as opposed to the much bigger and powerful "secular voice."


Whether it was capitalized was not the issue. You are an English teacher, yes? Well, then I'm sure you're aware that the article 'the' denotes singularity, while the articles, 'a' and 'an' denote multiplicity. Therefore, it is a mis-leading (I expect unintentional) usage of the article, 'the' where 'a' is appropriate.

The Christians that don't like Dr. Dobson's message and don't want to be labeled as supporting such a message would be just as concerned about the wrong impression that incorrect grammatical choice creates as I, so I don't feel like I'm being overly picky about it.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
dogbert wrote:
Dobson has no right to tell Americans how they should live.


Uhhh, yes he does.





I can't speak for dogbert but I can say I believe there is a difference between the Constitutionally protected right of free speech to say what you want, under certain restrictions, and the ethical problem of spouting off and interfering with others' right to live the way they want.
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not arguing that Dobson should be censored. Father Coughlin was not censored either.

I do resent the fact that he feels he has great authority to tell Americans how they should live their lives.

In other words, who died and made _him_ God?

It's the arrogance of these tin-pan preachers I abhor.
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R. S. Refugee wrote:
[



Whether it was capitalized was not the issue. You are an English teacher, yes? Well, then I'm sure you're aware that the article 'the' denotes singularity, while the articles, 'a' and 'an' denote multiplicity. Therefore, it is a mis-leading (I expect unintentional) usage of the article, 'the' where 'a' is appropriate.

.


Thanks for the (an) English lesson. From now on I will avoid the following phrases:

The voice of reason, the Word of God, the church, the ocean, the alphabet, the meaning of life and so on for obvious reasons. I will also refrain from starting any sentence like this, "The goal of the Republicans is to..." or "The problem with the economy is..." or "The other day..."

I will be more careful in, um, our future.



On another topic (much closer to the original one) what is exactly is meant by a "progressive church?"
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
[


I can't speak for dogbert but I can say I believe there is a difference between the Constitutionally protected right of free speech to say what you want, under certain restrictions, and the ethical problem of spouting off and interfering with others' right to live the way they want.


PLease elaborte on this "interfering" of which you speak.
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dogbert wrote:
Are you related to the man? Why does my criticism of him wound you so?

Actually, you have not criticized him at all. You have hoped for his downfall brought on by a hypocrisy that you take for granted. You have referred to him and others (you assume to be) like him in many negative terms, but you have not really criticized him at all. What you hate about him seems to be what you hate about anybody who would, "pray about it when you're in church"

But what a facile quip that ignores the main point, which R.S. Refugee has been kind enough to illustrate more eloquently than I could.

So your main point was never actually stated by you but by RSR? An odd way to get your main point across. I'm guessing that your point has to do with legislation, but I'd like to hear what exactly your criticizm of Dobson is and what exactly your main point is..
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flakfizer wrote:
R. S. Refugee wrote:
[



Whether it was capitalized was not the issue. You are an English teacher, yes? Well, then I'm sure you're aware that the article 'the' denotes singularity, while the articles, 'a' and 'an' denote multiplicity. Therefore, it is a mis-leading (I expect unintentional) usage of the article, 'the' where 'a' is appropriate.

.


Thanks for the (an) English lesson. From now on I will avoid the following phrases:

The voice of reason, the Word of God, the church, the ocean, the alphabet, the meaning of life and so on for obvious reasons. I will also refrain from starting any sentence like this, "The goal of the Republicans is to..." or "The problem with the economy is..." or "The other day..."

I will be more careful in, um, our future.



On another topic (much closer to the original one) what is exactly is meant by a "progressive church?"


A point well taken, flakie. English seems to me to be a diffucult language to produce rules for codifying usage. And I also need to review the grammar rules to see if I can find a more appropriate expression of what my concern is about that usage.

Nonetheless, as you well know, unless you happen to be a member of a sect that believes their's is the only true way -- the only true Christian church -- and all the other Protestant sects and the Roman Catholic Church lead to hell, then "the" is the inappropriate article in that usage. If you do believe that your particular sect is the only true Christian church, it is the correct article to use.

Regarding your second question, I'll get back to you later with a response when I have a little more time to write. I'm still looking for your answer to a question I left for you on the Christian Martyrs, Suicide Bombers thread. Perhaps you overlooked it.

What Christian sect are you a member of, flakie?
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R. S. Refugee wrote:
[



Nonetheless, as you well know, unless you happen to be a member of a sect that believes their's is the only true way -- the only true Christian church -- and all the other Protestant sects and the Roman Catholic Church lead to hell, then "the" is the inappropriate article in that usage. If you do believe that your particular sect is the only true Christian church, it is the correct article to use.

I don't believe that. Using the word "the" was not the best way to make my point, I guess. As I mentioned, I used the phrase "the christian voice" as opposed to "the secular voice" kind of in the same way I would use "the church" as opposed to "the world." That does not mean I think there is only one voice or one church except in that "The Christian voice" is the combined voice of many different Christians much as "The Church" is a combination of many different churches.

Regarding your second question, I'll get back to you later with a response when I have a little more time to write. I'm still looking for your answer to a question I left for you on the Christian Martyrs, Suicide Bombers thread. Perhaps you overlooked it.

In fact, I did not see it until you mentioned it here. I'll try and answer over there.

What Christian sect are you a member of, flakie?

I would not say I am part of any sect unless you consider protestantism a sect. I have regularly attended church from childhood and that has included several different denominations and some non-denominational churches. I would say I am simply a protestant Christian who believes the Bible is the Word of God and should shape our moral beliefs, actions and the way the church is run.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flakfizer wrote:
R. S. Refugee wrote:


Nonetheless, as you well know, unless you happen to be a member of a sect that believes their's is the only true way -- the only true Christian church -- and all the other Protestant sects and the Roman Catholic Church lead to hell, then "the" is the inappropriate article in that usage. If you do believe that your particular sect is the only true Christian church, it is the correct article to use.


It was a bit of a quibbling point, but emotions do run pretty high regarding the high-profile religious right these days, so perhaps diplomatic care is somewhat called for in speech to avoid pressing the hot buttons for a lot of people.

Regarding words, 'sect' is, I believe, just a synonym for denomination and is used in such ways as 'sectarian', 'non-sectarian.' I guess 'denomination' would have been a less confusing word choice. I attend a Methodist church which is at the most progressive end of the pendulum among Methodist congregations.

I am however, an agnostic who finds inspiration in religious principles and celebrating those principles together in community. The church I attend has a very big tent. Including it being a reconciling congregation; that is, one that welcomes gays and lesbians to participate fully and probably about a third of our congregation is in that demographic.

Cheers.
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