Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali....on the Left
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:18 am    Post subject: Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali....on the Left Reply with quote

or why she is as exasperated as many of us.......


Because the left is exactly like the Muslims! I wanted to give priority to the defense of immigrant women who are victims of domestic violence. They said to me: ¡°No, that¡¯s not a priority! The problem will take care of itself when the immigrants have jobs and are integrated.¡± It is exactly what the Imams say who demand that we accept oppression and slavery today because tomorrow, in Heaven, God will give us dates and raisins ... . I think we need first to defend the individual. The left is afraid of everything. But fear of giving offense leads to injustice and suffering. The sexual revolution, the affirmation of individual rights, improving the living conditions of immigrants – these were once the great causes of the Dutch left. In their eyes, the simple fact of belong to a minority gives one the right to do anything. This multiculturalism is a disaster. All one has to do is scream ¡°discrimination¡± and all doors are open to you! Scream ¡®racism¡¯ and your opponents shut up! But multiculturalism is an inconsistent theory. If one wants to let communities preserve their traditions, what happens when these traditions work to the detriment of women or homosexuals? The logic of multiculturalism amounts to accepting the subordination of women. Nonetheless, the defenders of multiculturalism do not want to admit it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

That's pretty big of you.


I appreciate your concern for the rights of women and homosexuals.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ummm....

these are the words of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the woman who is being threatened with death by Islamaniacs in Holland.

Send her an e-mail of support.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
guangho



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islam desperately needs its own Reformation but that can't be imposed from outside.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 7:29 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

While I can appreciate that being targeted sucks, this judgement of multi-culturalism is reactionary and shallow.

What about the multi-culturalism that allowed her to become a Dutch MP?

And, along the same lines, what exactly is the alternative?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well-said Nowhere Man.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hank Scorpio



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Nowhere Man wrote:

What about the multi-culturalism that allowed her to become a Dutch MP?

And, along the same lines, what exactly is the alternative?


The alternative is to not elevate every minority group to the status of a victim group.

It's to acknowledge that different people have different cultures, but y'know what? Some of your beliefs are not going to mesh with your host culture. If you're deadset on keeping your wife (or hey, we're talking Islam here... It could be wives) as a slave and attacking anyone who says anything bad about the invisible man that you pray to then maybe you'd be better off living in the sandy third world hellhole from whence you came.

As an immigrant your host country owes you nothing. You're certainly not deserving of special victim status because a bunch of priveleged ninnies feel overwhelmed with white guilt. You either adapt to your host culture or you get the hell out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What about the multi-culturalism that allowed her to become a Dutch MP?


Clearly you have no understanding of what multiculturalism is. What 'allowed' her to become a Dutch MP was her own ambition and tenacity, combined with Western democractic concepts of equality. Dutch tolerance (allowing refugees to settle in Holland) allowed her to come there in the first place.

What she is saying, similar to most critics of multiculturalism, is that nations should stand up for their own values and that their should be a shared set of values and norms that everyone accepts, such as gender equality, freedom of speech and democracy.

Multiculturalism rejects any notion of a shared identity. It rejects as 'cultural imperialism' the notion that immigrants should adapt and integrate into the society in which they chose to live. People like yourself seem to think that criticising the ideology of multiculturalism, is wanting to send all immigrants 'back home'. It is not. It is merely asking 'when in Rome, do as the Romans.' Do not expect the state to fund programs to teach your children their mother tongue, or their own traditions. Do not expect the people or institutions of a state to change to accomodate your own narrow minority interests.

Essentially, people like Hirsi Ali are saying quite bluntly is, 'if you want to live as if you were still in Islamabad, then don't come to the West.'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guangho wrote:
Islam desperately needs its own Reformation but that can't be imposed from outside.


As a Muslim myself, I agree, but I think Western countries can helpo lay the grounds for such by keeping pressure on undemocratic regimes and promoting free trade in the Muslim world. The latter should help to lift living standards and thus take away the support base for Wahabite Islam, which is primarily responsible for giving the religion such an ugly aura of late.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Multiculturalism rejects any notion of a shared identity.


I disagree. In fact, I think you have turned multiculturalism on its head.

Multiculturalism is based on the idea of a shared humanity and the recognition that all cultures have worthy aspects. No where I've ever seen does multiculturalism defend the extreme manifestations of culture, like female circumcision and honor killings.

Please provide a link to support your claims.

I'm curious. I asked this before somewhere but no one answered. Do you support forced assimilation like was practiced in the US, Canada and Australia when Indians/Native Americans and aborigines were forced to leave home to attend schools and physically punished when they spoke their own language? Is that the model of assimilation you are proposing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
guangho



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaganath69 wrote:
guangho wrote:
Islam desperately needs its own Reformation but that can't be imposed from outside.


As a Muslim myself, I agree, but I think Western countries can helpo lay the grounds for such by keeping pressure on undemocratic regimes and promoting free trade in the Muslim world. The latter should help to lift living standards and thus take away the support base for Wahabite Islam, which is primarily responsible for giving the religion such an ugly aura of late.


I'm not so sure about that- Dubya's Big Adventure was supposed to lift all boats and give the democratic warm fuzzies to Muslims throughout Arabia- it hasn't exactly worked out that way from what I can see from here. Also, we've been sucking up Saudi oil (and paying a pretty penny for the privilige) for thirty years now and they in turn spawned Osama (who is quite wealthy btw) and 15 hijackers. They also just had an election which reaffirmed the Wahabbi power base.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The perpetrators of terror may be wealthy, someone has to back the show. However, its no secret that income has failed to meet expectations across the Arab and Muslim world and that poverty and resentment lie at the heart of popular support for terrorist causes. Compare wealthy Brunei and (comparitively) wealthy Malaysia, and its a no brainer that there is less of this kind of activity eminating from nations which are better off. What many people don't see, along side the taliban and similar groups, are the millions of moderate Muslims in places like Indonesia and Turkey who would rather work and prosper than support a back-to-the-darkages type movement. Its only when despair and despondency grow that support for such actions increase.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Multiculturalism is based on the idea of a shared humanity and the recognition that all cultures have worthy aspects.


No it's not. It's based on the idea that all cultures are EQUAL, which they patently are not. It's based on the idea that the state should not promote a shared NATIONAL identity, and that minority cultures should be given parity and equal support to the majority indigeneous culture. It rejects the notion that immigrants should assimilate. It assigns people rights based on their group status, and treats people differently according to their ethnic origin. It rejects the notion of shared values (and in the West, this mean Western values) and replaces them with 'cultural sensitivity'.

It is an inherently divisive ideology.

Quote:
I asked this before somewhere but no one answered. Do you support forced assimilation like was practiced in the US, Canada and Australia


No one answered it because it's a ridiculous comparison. You are comparing the FORCED assimilation of indigeneous people, with the integration of people who have voluntarily left their place of origin to come and live in the West, with the indigeneous people of Europe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Compare wealthy Brunei and (comparitively) wealthy Malaysia, and its a no brainer that there is less of this kind of activity eminating from nations which are better off


Do countries become more stridently Islamic because they are poor, or is it Islam that makes them poor in the first place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Compare wealthy Brunei and (comparitively) wealthy Malaysia, and its a no brainer that there is less of this kind of activity eminating from nations which are better off


Do countries become more stridently Islamic because they are poor, or is it Islam that makes them poor in the first place.


There is no bar to capitalism and commerce in the Islamic world, except for the prohibitions on money lending which can be easily circumvented. The Arab world became a mighty empire based on trading between the time of the death of the Prophet and the crusades. Malaysia has flourished and continues to democratize. I don't think the religion has been a hinderance at all. Despotic crackpots ruling in its name have.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2013 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International