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US military admits Koran mishandled
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:49 am    Post subject: US military admits Koran mishandled Reply with quote

From the NY Times:

Quote:
Inquiry by U.S. Finds 5 Cases of Koran Harm

By THOM SHANKER
Published: May 27, 2005
WASHINGTON, May 26 - An American military inquiry has uncovered five instances in which guards or interrogators at the Guantánamo Bay detention facility in Cuba mishandled the Koran, but found "no credible evidence" to substantiate claims that it was ever flushed down a toilet, the chief of the investigation said on Thursday.

Brig. Gen. Jay W. Hood discussed preliminary findings of an inquiry into instances of possible desecration of the Koran at Guantánamo Bay.

Documents Say Detainees Cited Koran Abuse (May 26, 2005) All but one of the five incidents appear to have taken place before January 2003. In three cases, the mishandling of the Koran appears to have been deliberate, and in two it was accidental or unintentional, the commander said, adding that four cases involved guards, and one an interrogator. Two service members have been punished for their conduct, one recently.

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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/27/politics/27koran.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=99a5054d9305cf9a&hp&ex=1117166400&partner=homepage
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw part of a thing on this last night while I was channel surfing. I think it was on MSNBC. Anyway...

The interviewer was frothing on and on something like this: "What about those guys who got beheaded? What about all the car bombs in Baghdad killing 600 people in the last month? Why are you not angry about that? Aren't those worse than the mishandling of the Koran? Why are you always criticizing the US military?"

The interviewee handled it pretty well, I thought. He said something like, "I am angry about those things. I'm appalled and disgusted by it. But you invited me on this show to talk about the mishandling issue. Up to this point, your questions have been about the Koran, not about the actions of the militants. Don't interupt me. Why are you trying to paint me as unpatriotic?"

Then the phone rang in the other room and the segment was over when I got back. I thought it was a good illustration of how the rightwingers use the media to shape attitudes.
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Paji eh Wong



Joined: 03 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In further news that surprises no one, my ass itches.
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funplanet



Joined: 20 Jun 2003
Location: The new Bucheon!

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and if you continue to read the post above (the full story) you will find that mishandling also included "accidentally touching the Koran"...and they get their panties all in a wad over this????? Shocked

screw 'em
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
and if you continue to read the post above (the full story) you will find that mishandling also included "accidentally touching the Koran"...and they get their panties all in a wad over this?????

screw 'em


Yes, "included". Also included in the report were three cases of DELIBERATE mishandling of the Koran.

I'm not saying this is the war crime of the century, just that Newseek's notorious article wasn't quite fabricated from whole cloth.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At First Flush

Quran: So Islam's holy book was mishandled after all. Seems that some guards touched a few of them, another placed a pair on a TV and an interrogator stood over one during the questioning of a detainee. The horror.

Of 13 allegations the Pentagon looked into, it found only five cases of what could be "broadly defined" as the mishandling of the Quran at Guantanamo. Of those, four occurred before the military issued guidelines on how to deal with the book.

The probe also found no pattern to this mishandling while also noting 15 cases in which detainees themselves mistreated the Quran.

As for charges that guards or interrogators flushed Qurans down the toilet, we're pleased to see those accusations circling the drain. Brig. Gen. Jay Hood's probe found "no credible evidence" that there was any truth to them.

In other words, just keep moving. Nothing to see here. Unless the exercise of political correctness and an acute sensitivity toward Islamic fundamentalists is a spectacle worth chronicling.

Too bad that those reasonable souls who protested in Afghanistan and Pakistan over someone's flushing fantasy, and Newsweek, which got the whole thing rolling by reporting the unsubstantiated charges, couldn't wait for the investigation to clear things up.

That would have saved a lot of embarrassment — and more than a few lives.

Overreaction and hysteria, though, are hallmarks of radical Islam. (They're also hallmarks of the mainstream media when they smell a chance to cast President Bush in a poor light.)

Baptists haven't rioted when a Bible's been abused. The Episcopal Church hasn't gone on a deadly rampage because Scripture was profaned. Not a single Jew has run amok after a Torah was trashed. The Catholic clergy hasn't stirred mob violence when sacred items of its faith have been trod under foot.

But according to the extreme code that roused some Muslims to riot over accusations that a U.S. soldier had flushed a Quran down a toilet, they'd be justified in doing so.

There are enough examples of Jewish and Christian holy books, sites and images being defiled by Muslims — and by so-called artists — to give plenty of offense. But the media don't seem to care about them.

So where does the press go now, with no Quran desecration to hang around Bush's neck? What's the next "gotcha" awaiting the president? Sometimes we think they'd provide better service if they just flushed their "Get the White House" playbook.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

double post-
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Catholic clergy hasn't stirred mob violence when sacred items of its faith have been trod under foot.


Well, when Ireland gets invaded by Britain again, and reports of Eucharist desecration by Orangemen guards emerge from a prison system in which Catholics have already been tortured, sexually humiliated, and forced to violate their religious mores, I guess we'll see how the Catholics react then.
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh No! Didn't the Geneva Convention clearly state that brutal treatment of paper is a serious war crime? Now, holding civilians hostages and chopping off their heads, well, that's just good tactics.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flakfizer wrote:
Oh No! Didn't the Geneva Convention clearly state that brutal treatment of paper is a serious war crime? Now, holding civilians hostages and chopping off their heads, well, that's just good tactics.

How many of the Gitmo detainees are accused of beheadings? Oh, I remember now. None.

And no one has spooken of war crimes in this context, flak. Neither is the Koran merely "paper" any more than the King James is merely paper or the US Constitution is just paper. Slap yourself a few times until until you regain your senses, there, fella.

By the way, just to be clear, the Geneva Convention has nothing to say about this, last time I looked, but the abuses cited do in fact contravene our own policies, guidelines and procedures ... therefore, these were either isolated anomalies or the published policies are just CYA window-dressing and public relations and in no way reflect of what we really do and the attitudes we really hold toward those with non-Christian belilefs.

Which is it? Are we going to go back to the "few bad apples" song and dance that was such a hit after the photos from Abu Ghraib?

sundubuman
Quote:
Baptists haven't rioted when a Bible's been abused. The Episcopal Church hasn't gone on a deadly rampage because Scripture was profaned. Not a single Jew has run amok after a Torah was trashed. The Catholic clergy hasn't stirred mob violence when sacred items of its faith have been trod under foot.

You want to assert that Baptists are and Catholics and such are morally superior, but you are wrong. (Never heard much intolerance from Episcopals, so I won't comment there.) About 20 years ago, a fella named Martin Scorcese directed a movie that chose to depict Jesus in ways other than the ways most of us are taught to see him in Sunday School.

In 1988, fundamentalist Christians in several nations vented rage and violence because a movie, "The Last Temptation of Christ," portrayed Jesus as a wavering human, lusting for the prostitute Mary Magdalene.

A Parisian theater showing the film was firebombed, sending 13 people to hospitals. Another at Besancon, France, suffered a similar attack. Tear gas was loosed in some French moviehouses. Israel's government banned the film.

In America, theaters were ransacked, one was burned, another had its screen slashed, and a screaming protester crashed a bus into a theater lobby. About 25,000 evangelicals picketed Universal Studios in Hollywood, and smaller throngs protested in several cities. Catholic bishops and TV evangelists denounced the movie angrily. Some filed lawsuits and appealed to politicians in attempts to ban it.


Two things are clear from all of this. The first thint we need to undersatand is that Newsweek displayed themselves as very large weasels by apologizing and retracting and kissing the gluteal muscles of the White House when it seems very clear that the kind of abuses they were alleging were very clearly taking place. This causes damage to the abilitity of Americans to view the reality that exists in front of us because from now on the lapgog pundits on the right will counter any evidence of torture and abuse with "Oh, is this going to be like Dan Rather and all the Koran-in-the-toilet stuff that was disproved?"

The other thing that is clear from this is that sundubuman is something of an ass. But we knew that already, of course.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
(Never heard much intolerance from Episcopals


Well, Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard might take some issue with that. Wink
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:

How many of the Gitmo detainees are accused of beheadings? Oh, I remember now. None


I suspect that you don't know what they are accused of thus you are not qualified to make this claim.

Quote:
By the way, just to be clear, the Geneva Convention has nothing to say about this, last time I looked, but the abuses cited do in fact contravene our own policies, guidelines and procedures ...


Touching the Koran contravenes which policy exactly?


Quote:
by apologizing and retracting and kissing the gluteal muscles of the White House when it seems very clear that the kind of abuses they were alleging were very clearly taking place.


That the Koran was being flushed dwon the toilet?


Quote:
Two things are clear from all of this. The first thint we need to undersatand is that Newsweek displayed themselves as very large weasels


The only weasles here are you and your political ilk. Are we muslims? Should we be expected to treat the "holy" book with as much reverence as a muslim? Would muslims treat the bible with as much respect in their own countries?
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
just that Newseek's notorious article wasn't quite fabricated from whole cloth.


Just severly embellished.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Would muslims treat the bible with as much respect in their own countries?


I don't know about the Bible. But in Indonesia(with the largest Muslim population in the world), some guy was recently ARRESTED for desecrating a Catholic Eucharist.

Quote:
Reports said the unrest was sparked after a Protestant man, who had joined his Catholic girlfriend at the mass, allegedly crushed his Communion wafer ?an action deemed blasphemous by the Catholic worshippers.

After the service ended, worshippers and others sought to attack the man, identified as Jacob T. (27), but he was given refuge in a priest뭩 room until police arrived. As police led the man away, the crowd demanded he be handed over and forced to apologize for his action. When police refused, the mob attempted to seize Jacob and fought with officers.

Police then fired warning shots inside the cathedral compound to disperse the crowd. Angry mobs later protested at three police offices and soon turned violent, starting fires and throwing stones. Police responded by firing more warning shots and calling for reinforcements.

At least three police were hospitalized and seven others injured, while some vehicles were damaged. Dozens of the protesters were injured, but there were no reports of any deaths.



Quote:
Jacob was taken by police to the East Nusa Tenggara provincial capital of Kupang for questioning. Budhiniar said he would eventually be put on trial in Atambua. He is expected to be charged under the Criminal Code뭩 Article 156 on contempt of religion, which carries a maximum sentence of four years in jail and a fine of Rp4,500.


And notice what the Catholics repsonse to the desecration was? They rioted, and injured several people.


Last edited by On the other hand on Mon May 30, 2005 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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