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Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali....on the Left
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The concept relates to followers of other scriptural religions who we as Muslims are to treat as equal.


What you should have said is that 'people of the book' are to be respected more than idolators, such as Hindus. However, equality it certainly is not.

'fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute (jizya) out of hand and are utterly subdued' (Sura 9:29)

Utterly subdued? Doesn't sound like equality to me.

The life of the dhimmi is not one of equality.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don't lecture me about my faith, you have no idea what I have studied and read

Sorry if it came across that way. However, when you said that Islam

Quote:
had been corrupted by fundamentalists of late


you were misrepresenting Islam, as jihad is both a spiritual and military struggle. What jihadists are doing may be wrong and inhumane, but it is certainly not a 'corruption' of Islam, unless following the example of the Prophet is corruption.
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
The concept relates to followers of other scriptural religions who we as Muslims are to treat as equal.


What you should have said is that 'people of the book' are to be respected more than idolators, such as Hindus. However, equality it certainly is not.

'fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute (jizya) out of hand and are utterly subdued' (Sura 9:29)

Utterly subdued? Doesn't sound like equality to me.

The life of the dhimmi is not one of equality.


It is open to interpretation, like any scripture from any religion. History can show many instances of peaceful co-existance between Muslims and Dhimmi.

You quote one sura in order to defame the religion. How many contradictory verses can you find in other religious books? Again, its obvious you don't like the religion, its your choice. But allow me to quote from Al Qur'an as you did.

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit.(Qur'an 29:46)

Then again, I do not deal in absolutes, much unlike the line of reasoning you seem so hellbent on taking. I'll defer to an expert on the matter, namely British-born Princeton Middle East historian, Bernard Lewis.

Two stereotypes dominate most of what has been written on tolerance and intolerance in the Islamic world. The first depicts a fanatical warrior, an Arab horseman riding out of the desert with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other, offering his victims the choice between the two. This picture [íŽ] is not only false but impossible [íŽ]. The other image, almost equally preposterous, is that of an interfaith, interracial utopia, in which men and women belonging to different races, professing different creeds, lived side by side in a golden age of unbroken harmony, enjoying equality of rights and of opportunities, and toiling together for the advancement of civilization. Both images are of course wildly distorted; yet both contain, as stereotypes often do, some elements of truth. Two features they have in common are that they are relatively recent, and that they are of Western and not Islamic origin
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
History can show many instances of peaceful co-existance between Muslims and Dhimmi.


For many years also, black slaves 'peacefully coexited' with their white masters. It what not, a relationship between equals, however, and it was fundamentally immoral and unjust. The same goes for the treatment of dhimmis.

Quote:
How many contradictory verses can you find in other religious books?


Plenty. However, as I have already pointed out, the Koran is seen by muslims as they immutable, unchanging word of God, valid for all time. This is worrying, as the Koran can be used to justify brutal violence against 'idolaters', paedophilia, slavery and rape. It becomes difficult for muslims to argue against such things if the Koran continues to be revered as the actual word of God.

Indeed, the Old Testament justifies slavery and many other injustices. However, most Jews and Christians see these verses as pertaining to a certain point in history, and as such, not relevant to the modern day.
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Indeed, the Old Testament justifies slavery and many other injustices. However, most Jews and Christians see these verses as pertaining to a certain point in history, and as such, not relevant to the modern day
.

How can you say this, in which there is much truth, then say that Islam is exceptional in this regard? Sure, there are people who take it word for word, but so do certain Christians and Jews (and for that matter Hindus, Buddhists etc). The Koran is just as historically rooted as the other works you cite, and thus open to interpretation.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to interrupt Jagan and verne's debate,

but I am still awaiting a response from Jagan regarding whether or not he feels the citizens of Saudi Arabia should enjoy the freedom to choose their religion. Currently, they are denied this freedom which you, as a citizen of the West, have obviously enjoyed.

Yes or no...

Do you think that all people born into an Islamic family should have THE RIGHT to leave that religion if they choose to do so?

And secondly, should Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists enjoy the same freedom to worship and proslytize in Muslim lands as Muslims now enjoy in the west, India, Korea, etc.?

Yes or no.

I'm waiting for your response.
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sundubuman wrote:
Not to interrupt Jagan and verne's debate,

but I am still awaiting a response from Jagan regarding whether or not he feels the citizens of Saudi Arabia should enjoy the freedom to choose their religion. Currently, they are denied this freedom which you, as a citizen of the West, have obviously enjoyed.

Yes or no...

Do you think that all people born into an Islamic family should have THE RIGHT to leave that religion if they choose to do so?

And secondly, should Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists enjoy the same freedom to worship and proslytize in Muslim lands as Muslims now enjoy in the west, India, Korea, etc.?

Yes or no.

I'm waiting for your response.


Sorry, Sman, I missed your post. I'm a Muslim, but also a libertarian and a rational humanist, something I don't believe is at odds with my faith (although I must confess to not being the strictest of Muslims). Yes, I beleive everyone has a right to choose their own faith. As for proslytization, although I am not a fan of it, I think everyone has a right to express their beliefs. As I have been saying, I am critical of certain aspects of the faith myself and think things are far from perfect now. I do, however, realize the faith is far more than the extremes of wahabism or Iranian-style Shia democracy. My experience of Islam comes from friends in Australia, Indonesia, Brunei, Malaysia and Southern Thailand, where things are very different. Finally, don't take my defensiveness as a put down, I am quite happy to discuss this in a good-natured way.

Cheers

PS, Hindus and Buddhists don't generally proslytize.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, they along with Jews, do not proselytize...

I'm glad you think they are undeserving of death.

When 100% of your newfound co-religionists believe as you do, our planet will begin to achieve peace.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there are people who take it word for word, but so do certain Christians and Jews


But, as many muslims have told me, the Koran is THE WORD of God. Muhammed merely served as a conduit for those words. This is often one of their criticisms of the Bible, that it was written by man and has been changed many times.

This is why criticism and reform are so difficult in Islam. How can you criticise the word of God?
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
there are people who take it word for word, but so do certain Christians and Jews


But, as many muslims have told me, the Koran is THE WORD of God. Muhammed merely served as a conduit for those words. This is often one of their criticisms of the Bible, that it was written by man and has been changed many times.

This is why criticism and reform are so difficult in Islam. How can you criticise the word of God?


Something like a third of American Christians believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God too.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Something like a third of American Christians believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God too.


I wouldn't necessarily question you on that, but some links to back it up would be helpful. If even what you are saying is true, that would still mean that a majority of US Christians think that some of the old testament teachings are no longer relevant today. Moreover, the New Testament message serves to temper some of the brutality of the Old Testament.

However, in Islam, muslims are told to emulate a man who lived over a millenia ago and who spread Islam by the sword, often brutally. At the moment, those muslims who challenge the Koran as being the pure word of Allah are a fringe group. Only when the behaviour of Mohammed as to its relevance to the modern day is questioned, and people are actually allowed, without fearing for their life, to question the Koran, will Islamic violence be stopped.
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Something like a third of American Christians believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God too.


I wouldn't necessarily question you on that, but some links to back it up would be helpful. If even what you are saying is true, that would still mean that a majority of US Christians think that some of the old testament teachings are no longer relevant today. Moreover, the New Testament message serves to temper some of the brutality of the Old Testament.

However, in Islam, muslims are told to emulate a man who lived over a millenia ago and who spread Islam by the sword, often brutally. At the moment, those muslims who challenge the Koran as being the pure word of Allah are a fringe group. Only when the behaviour of Mohammed as to its relevance to the modern day is questioned, and people are actually allowed, without fearing for their life, to question the Koran, will Islamic violence be stopped.


You are absolutely right with the distinction of reality from perception vis-a-vis christianity in the states, but apply the model to ALL Muslims around the world. Saying 'all Muslims believe this" is plain misleading. I suggest you take some time to see how things are in reality in Muslim countries outside the Gulf and North Africa. I have no argument with you when you say that much of the practice of the religion is patriarchal, overbearing and undemocratic, but I disagree with you that this is inherent from the nature of the religion.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:05 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Yes, Verne, Jagan summarizes your position quite concisely.

People tell you that not all Muslims are the same, and you go off about the Koran, which is to prove your point that they are all, in fact the same.

The fact is that Muslims interpret the Koran differently.

I guess that's news to you.

And it is a minority of Muslims who want non-Muslim people to die.

This has been explained to you, and you're still off to the races about the Koran.

What part of the Bible has been renounced?

And do tell us about your real-life experiences with Muslims.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The fact is that Muslims interpret the Koran differently.


Could you please let me know of any mainstream scholars that renounce the Koran as the unadulterated word of God. For this reason, and others, Islam is a different animal from Christianity and indeed Judaism. It is why 'moderate' clerics find it difficult to combat Jihadists, because there are countless verses in the Koran justifying violence, and many of the ones that do justify violence, which were revealed to Muhammed at a later date, 'abrogate' the more moderate ones. That is a serious problem.

Quote:
What part of the Bible has been renounced?


Well, eating pork for one. But more importantly, both Christianity and Judaism, in the case of Israel, have separated religion from the state. Islam sees no division between the temporal and spiritual realm. Allah's law prevails on earth as it does in paradise. This is one of the reason's why democracy will find it hard to ever take root in places like Iraq and Iran.

Quote:
it is a minority of Muslims who want non-Muslim people to die.


Simplistic, emotive nonsense. Of course, it is a minority of muslim people who want non-muslim people 'to die' as you put it. The point that I am making is that Islam, as it stands, is an inherently dangerous ideology, containing within it justification for violence and religious intolerance, due to the fact that it is still accepted as the word of Allah, and due to example of the prophet Mohammed.

Quote:
And do tell us about your real-life experiences with Muslims.


I know many Iranians, most of whom left Iran to get away from the strictures of Islam. I have nothing against people who happen to be of a muslim background, although I will continue to argue against Islam the ideology.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:37 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
Could you please let me know of any mainstream scholars that renounce the Koran as the unadulterated word of God. For this reason, and others, Islam is a different animal from Christianity and indeed Judaism. It is why 'moderate' clerics find it difficult to combat Jihadists, because there are countless verses in the Koran justifying violence, and many of the ones that do justify violence, which were revealed to Muhammed at a later date, 'abrogate' the more moderate ones. That is a serious problem.


Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists. Who among them renounces their holy texts?


Quote:
Quote:
What part of the Bible has been renounced?


Well, eating pork for one. But more importantly, both Christianity and Judaism, in the case of Israel, have separated religion from the state. Islam sees no division between the temporal and spiritual realm. Allah's law prevails on earth as it does in paradise. This is one of the reason's why democracy will find it hard to ever take root in places like Iraq and Iran.


So, Christians have "renounced" the Bible because of a passage about pork? Is that passage still in the Bible? Or is it that they focus on other points? That, sir, is called interpretation. Nothing has been renounced, yet you are calling for Muslims to renounce passages from the Koran. Practice what you preach.


Quote:
Quote:
it is a minority of Muslims who want non-Muslim people to die.


Simplistic, emotive nonsense.


Really?

Here's you at the moment:

Quote:
Of course, it is a minority of muslim people who want non-muslim people 'to die' as you put it.


And here's my question and your answer a page back:
Quote:
Millions of people want to see the Western infidels die?


Unfortunately yes. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this point?


Quote:
The point that I am making is that Islam, as it stands, is an inherently dangerous ideology, containing within it justification for violence and religious intolerance, due to the fact that it is still accepted as the word of Allah, and due to example of the prophet Mohammed.


So, when confronted with the fact that millions of people don't want to see you die, you turn your attack towards the Koran. Now, you tell me, is your attack "temporal" or "spiritual"? Let me address both. Speaking contemporaneously (no, I don't even know if that's a word), only a minority of Muslims support bin Laden's declared Jihad. Spiritually speaking, the same Muslims study the Koran without the knee-jerk Bomb-the-WTC switch you are trying to plant in the Koran. You are, quite blatantly, trying to speak for all Muslims while at the same time, your "clothing argument" was found "holey" and your still going on about how YOU want Muslims to "renounce" passages of their holy book while there really is no historical precedent for that in any major religion.

Quote:
Quote:
And do tell us about your real-life experiences with Muslims.


I know many Iranians, most of whom left Iran to get away from the strictures of Islam. I have nothing against people who happen to be of a muslim background, although I will continue to argue against Islam the ideology.


Yes, but you do have something against anyone practicing Islam.

Right?
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