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Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali....on the Left
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
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Care to answer the question, doctor?



Sure.

I consider fundamentalist Christianity a greater threat to the future of America and the traditions it was founded on than anything/anyone else.


So, it's not fundamentalism itself any more:

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It's the psychological mind set of extremism that is the problem.


Your meaning, I take it, was that it matters not which religion is infected by extremism.

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Wonderful! Now which brand of extremism is causing the most trouble today? I'll bet it's not extreme Jainism.


And now, turned out from that notion, it seems it matters to you after all which religion falls within the grip of extremism, and so you rail against what you claim represents the "true threat" to America: Fundamentalist Christians. Surprise Surprise!

Whew, what a relief. For a minute there I thought you were going to blame the Jews.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Your meaning, I take it, was that it matters not which religion is infected by extremism.

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Wonderful! Now which brand of extremism is causing the most trouble today? I'll bet it's not extreme Jainism.


And now, turned out from that notion, it seems it matters to you after all which religion falls within the grip of extremism, and so you rail against what you claim represents the "true threat" to America: Fundamentalist Christians. Surprise Surprise!



You asked which brand (note the singular) is causing the most trouble today. And I gave my opinion. In my neighborhood it's the flakes from the Right Wing. If I lived in India I might answer it was fundamentalist Hindus. etc.

PS: Do you know what 'to rail' means?
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
Your meaning, I take it, was that it matters not which religion is infected by extremism.

Quote:
Wonderful! Now which brand of extremism is causing the most trouble today? I'll bet it's not extreme Jainism.


And now, turned out from that notion, it seems it matters to you after all which religion falls within the grip of extremism, and so you rail against what you claim represents the "true threat" to America: Fundamentalist Christians. Surprise Surprise!



You asked which brand (note the singular) is causing the most trouble today. And I gave my opinion. In my neighborhood it's the flakes from the Right Wing. If I lived in India I might answer it was fundamentalist Hindus. etc.


Oh, I get it. And if you lived in Hawaii in, say 1941, you'd be telling us the "true" threat to America was Roosevelt.

Anyway, I'll clarify now: I was asking which brand of fundamentalism was causing the most problems worldwide. I don't think we can point to militant Hinduism.

Right wing flakes in your neighborhood worse than the WTC bombers. Nice.

Do you know what a 'flake' is?
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
I, unlike yourself apparently, believe in gender equality. Something which is non-existent in most Islamic societies. Would you care to address this point? Or is equality only for Western women? (...)

I am not 'preaching' anything, simply arguing against the ludicrous PC assumption that Islam is not, at its core, an intolerant, totalitarian ideology that crushes human freedom.


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In all countries women are oppressed, sometimes horribly, and life for religious minorities is unpleasant to say the least.(...)

I stated that women in most muslim countries are not free to dress as they wish, due to laws or societal pressure. The statement is not 'incorrect' in the slightest. (...)

Intolerance against minorities, subjugation of women, and oppression occur in worrying frequency throughout the Islamic world, not inspite of Islam, but because of it.


I'm willing to agree that it's tough to be a woman in Islamic countries, but it's tough also in Korea, the US, ANYwhere.

Came across this, and couldn't help but think it might add something ... who knows, hey, it just happened, and this IS the Current Events Forum.

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An Everest first for Muslim women

MICHAEL THEODOULOU

TWO Iranians yesterday became the first Muslim women to conquer Mount Everest as the early season expedition took advantage of a rare weather window to reach the world's highest summit.

Farkhondeh Sadegh, 36, a graphic designer, and Loleh Keshavarz, 26, a dentist, hoisted their country's tricoloured flag on the summit together with six Iranian men at 10:45am local time yesterday.

"It's fantastic," Mohammad Hajabolfath, the editor of Iran Mountain Zone, a website for climbers, told The Scotsman.

"It is a very big thing for women in Iran. Because of weather conditions, most climbers here expected to hear the Iranian team would be returning unsuccessfully."

The 21-strong Iranian team, including seven women, arrived in Nepal in mid-March but their expedition, like many others on Everest, was hampered by treacherous weather
.


All that Shariah Law, and they can't keep the women down with the rest of us anyway ... Wink
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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But haven't you said, repeatedly, that all of Islam is following the Koran word-by-word?


No, what I said that is that muslims are taught to believe that the Koran is the untainted, unchanged, final word of God. This makes challenging some of the more 'unpleasant' verses within it problematic.


And you said that in response to the idea that different Muslims interpret the Koran differently, which they do.

While it does make "challenging" verses problematic, there isn't necessarily a need to "challenge" them. Christians who take the Bible as the literal word of God do the same thing. They focus on what they want.


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Why do Muslims have to argue "against" the Koran?


I didn't say they had to argue against it, but I do believe they should be free to question it, if they so choose. Do you believe in freedom of conscience?


Yes, I do. But I do disagree with your crusade to pidgeon-hole a religion of millions. There are millions of peaceful Muslims whose goal is not to kill you, BigVerne, because you're an infidel.



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How many Christians argue "against" the Bible?


You're simplifying things yet again. At the moment, there are huge, and very controversial debates in both the catholic and protestant churches regarding women priests, homosexuality, contraception and so on. Some Christians profess literalism, other a more nuanced version of the scriptures. This is simply impossible in muslim countries at the moment.


And Nigeria is having none of this gay priest/pastor business. Will there be a female Dalai Lama?

But to address the point quite specifically, is any of this debate "against" the Bible? Or is it about interpretation?

Is anyone involved in these debates "renouncing" the Bible?


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Your statements about death warrants is, like everything else you've said, exaggerated.


Let's stick to facts. Hirsi Ali is living under a death sentence, as too is Salman Rushdie. This is not exaggeration. But keep ignoring the facts if it pleases you.


And the facts include the death penalty statistics I posted. Muslims are not issuing death warrants for everyone who interprets the Koran differently.

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millions of people are not following his call for Jihad


This depends upon your definition of 'following'. If you mean actually engaging in terrorist operations against the West then you are probably right. However, clerics throughout the world who echo his message play to packed mosques everyday of the week in muslim nations. If only 1% of muslims supported Bin Laden (and that's a low estimate) that would still be 10 million people.


THE SKY IS FALLING! 1% would be a minute proportion. Is that a low estimate? Then, go for it. Build your 1% mole-hill into a 50% or more mountain of majority. Or is it that a very small proportion of Muslims are extremists, and you insist on howling about how the whole religion is paramount to the Ebola virus?

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You, who ignores all of the incorrect statements you've made, whether it's about clothing


I stated that women in most muslim countries are not free to dress as they wish, due to laws or societal pressure. The statement is not 'incorrect' in the slightest.


And I said, in what you termed a "gem", that many Muslim women do so as a sign of modesty.

Someone then posted a list of countries where there isn't a single absolute rule about women's clothing.

I also said that practices such as genital mutilation are more cultural than based in Islam.

A link that you posted later also explains that Sharia law is largely based on local culture and interpretation rather than anything absolutely commanded by the Koran.

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have the gall to take it upon yourself to interpret Islam


Well, we can't have infidels criticising Islam now can we. Islam is a philosophy, an ideology, and is as open criticism as any other ideology.

All I have stated is that the accepted literalism of the Koran, and the example of the prophet Mohammed provide plenty of justification for oppression, violence and brutality, which can be seen all over the Islamic world. Intolerance against minorities, subjugation of women, and oppression occur in worrying frequency throughout the Islamic world, not inspite of Islam, but because of it.


What you've actually stated is that, because Muslims take the Koran as the word of Allah, there is no room for interpretation. This is false.

You've also, using the old infidel argument, stated that millions of Muslims want to kill you. This is false.

You go on to cite a handful of Christians killed in Algeria as proof that the country doesn't have a secular government. This is not proof, especially given that some of the Christians killed had lived there for decades. Nor is their murder any statement about said country's government and/or society. Have you reviewed the acts committed against Muslims postt-9/11? Does that disqualify America as secular?

To make it clear, I'm not saying there aren't problems with Islam, but demonizing the whole religion is not an answer. That is what you are trying to do. Your statements ignore the vast, moderate Muslim majority. "Ignore" is not even the proper word for it. "Antagonistic" is better. Your own narrow-minded assertions about Islam do nothing to "free" Muslims, if that's what you're really interested in.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there isn't necessarily a need to "challenge" them.


I'd say that challenging verses that justify beating women, slaughtering infidels, slavery and rape are actually quite important.

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But to address the point quite specifically, is any of this debate "against" the Bible? Or is it about interpretation?


The Old Testament states quite clearly that homosexuality is an abomination and is punishable by death. Therefore, arguing that homosexuality is permissable, quite clearly goes against the Bible. The reason why some argue against this condemnation is because many Christians argue that the historical context of the Bible needs to be taken into account. This is much less prevalent in Islam. It is why few Christians argue for bringing back stoning, while many Islamic groups have, or want to.

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Muslims are not issuing death warrants for everyone who interprets the Koran differently.


However, what you still fail to recognise is that questioning whether the Koran is in fact, the WORD of Allah will result in charges of apostasy, imprisonment and in some cases, death, even in so-called 'secular' states. In contrast, it is possible to question the Bible as the word of God in the West, and to live a peaceful life.

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because Muslims take the Koran as the word of Allah, there is no room for interpretation. This is false.


What I said that there was little scope for challenging some of the more intolerant, violent and misogynistic aspects of the religion if it is taken to be the perfect word of God.

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stated that millions of Muslims want to kill you. This is false.


I never said they wanted to kill me personally. However, if even 1% of muslims support Bin Laden, then that is ten million muslims waging Jihad against the West. Hence, the statement that millions want to 'kill us' is a fact. Live with it.

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Nor is their murder any statement about said country's government and/or society.


The widespread lynching of blacks was a reflection of the endemic racism of Southern society. The same is true of persecution of non-muslims in muslim lands.

By the way, how many muslims have been killed in the USA in revenge for the 3,000 murdered on 9-11? I'm sure it's in no way comparable to what happens in Pakistan, Indonesia and Egypt with frightening regularity.

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Your statements ignore the vast, moderate Muslim majority.


That all depends on your definition of the word 'moderate' now doesn't it?
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And I said, in what you termed a "gem", that many Muslim women do so as a sign of modesty.

Someone then posted a list of countries where there isn't a single absolute rule about women's clothing.


He also put Pakistan among his list. A country where women are regularly killed for 'honour' crimes. Just because there are not laws mandating what women where, does not mean that women have any meaningful choice in how they choose to dress or live their lives.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

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there isn't necessarily a need to "challenge" them.


I'd say that challenging verses that justify beating women, slaughtering infidels, slavery and rape are actually quite important.


So, Muslims, by following their religion, automatically endorse these practices?

Or is it that, by virue of interpretation, these get left out?

But, here and in other threads, you're stating that Muslims intend to export them into Western culture and ultimately overthrow the West?

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But to address the point quite specifically, is any of this debate "against" the Bible? Or is it about interpretation?


The Old Testament states quite clearly that homosexuality is an abomination and is punishable by death. Therefore, arguing that homosexuality is permissable, quite clearly goes against the Bible. The reason why some argue against this condemnation is because many Christians argue that the historical context of the Bible needs to be taken into account. This is much less prevalent in Islam. It is why few Christians argue for bringing back stoning, while many Islamic groups have, or want to.

Quote:
Muslims are not issuing death warrants for everyone who interprets the Koran differently.


However, what you still fail to recognise is that questioning whether the Koran is in fact, the WORD of Allah will result in charges of apostasy, imprisonment and in some cases, death, even in so-called 'secular' states. In contrast, it is possible to question the Bible as the word of God in the West, and to live a peaceful life.


And, again, interpreting the Koran has evolved over centuries. Is it necessary to "question" whether it is the word of Allah? Interpretation still exists. Muslims live peacefully under multiple interpretations thereof.

The Bible, aside from the Ten Commandments, was never written as the word of God.

If we're going to get religious, what proof do you have that the Koran isn't the word of Allah?


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because Muslims take the Koran as the word of Allah, there is no room for interpretation. This is false.


What I said that there was little scope for challenging some of the more intolerant, violent and misogynistic aspects of the religion if it is taken to be the perfect word of God.


Yes, we went from "renouncing" to "challenging" to "questioning".

Still, you ignore interpreting and persist now with the "perfect" word of Allah. If it's perfect, then all Muslims would support the exact same thing. They don't. You want them to, but they don't. Jagan says he doesn't, and you shove it down his throat that he does. You're telling a Muslim that, when he says the work of people like bin Laden is extremist and a corruption of the Koran, it isn't because you, Mr Muslim-hater, actually know what Jagan thinks, or should think if he fits into your cookie-cutter version of Islam. You don't.


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stated that millions of Muslims want to kill you. This is false.


I never said they wanted to kill me personally. However, if even 1% of muslims support Bin Laden, then that is ten million muslims waging Jihad against the West. Hence, the statement that millions want to 'kill us' is a fact. Live with it.


OK. I'll give you that figure. 10 million people are "waging Jihad" against us? Where are they?

Attacking us? Or waging their own fear campaign as you are?

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Nor is their murder any statement about said country's government and/or society.


The widespread lynching of blacks was a reflection of the endemic racism of Southern society. The same is true of persecution of non-muslims in muslim lands.


And you have, what, like 5 killimgs to prove a country isn't secular?


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By the way, how many muslims have been killed in the USA in revenge for the 3,000 murdered on 9-11? I'm sure it's in no way comparable to what happens in Pakistan, Indonesia and Egypt with frightening regularity.


If you want the statistics about hate-based crime committed against Muslims since 9/11, just ask.

How about attacks on Sikhs because some good-ole-boy like you assumed they were Muslims because they wore turbans?

I already provided you with statistics on capital punishment world-wide last year, but go ahead and ignore them AGAIN.


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Your statements ignore the vast, moderate Muslim majority.


That all depends on your definition of the word 'moderate' now doesn't it?


It doesn't depend upon your desire to portray a billion people (based on your own statistics) as the same.

They're not. And you're not doing anything helpful by portraying them all as such.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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But, here and in other threads, you're stating that Muslims intend to export them into Western culture and ultimately overthrow the West?


No, I stated that muslims who immigrate to the West are unlikely to leave behind their culture, as can be seen in the ghettoes of Malmo, Rotterdam and Paris, and that if current rates of immigration continue then it is not beyond the realms of possibility that in 50 to 100 years Europe could face an Islamic future. Muslims are not 'plotting' to overthrow Europe, but Europe could certainly wither and die if such trends continue.

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Is it necessary to "question" whether it is the word of Allah? Interpretation still exists.


You still don't get it. People in Islamic countries should be free, if they choose, to make such criticism, without being charged with apostasy. Because people are free to challenge sections of the Bible, it is far more open to interpretation than the Koran.

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what proof do you have that the Koran isn't the word of Allah?


Yet more irrelevance, but I'll indulge you anyway. Personally, I refuse to believe that an ideology created by a bedouin a millenia ago has much relevance to the modern world, but this is just my opinion, and such an opinion would have got me pretty far up a certain creek if I were in a muslim nation.

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If it's perfect, then all Muslims would support the exact same thing.


No, because in many cases Islam has failed (thankfully) to wipe out already existing cultural norms. Some muslims are more devout than others, so obviously they will practice their faith differently, and to differing degrees.

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Jagan says he doesn't, and you shove it down his throat that he does.


Talking rubbish once again I see.

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You're telling a Muslim that, when he says the work of people like bin Laden is extremist and a corruption of the Koran


No, he said the concept of Jihad had been 'corrupted' by the likes of Bin Laden, and that Jihad was a spiritual struggle. I corrected him, and stated that Jihad is defined as both a spiritual struggle and an armed struggle, and that Islamic terrorists were using Koranic verses, and the example of Mohammed to justify their actions. Violent jihad will continue, as long as freedom of speech regarding Islam remains restricted in the Islamic world.

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And you have, what, like 5 killimgs to prove a country isn't secular?


You said that the murder of Christians in muslim lands was no reflection on their government and society. In Pakistan and Bangladesh, Christians are persecuted, and murdered all too often. Your blase attitude to this widespread muslim intolerance is rather sickening.

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If you want the statistics about hate-based crime committed against Muslims since 9/11, just ask.


I already did, and I'm still waiting for a reply.

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How about attacks on Sikhs because some good-ole-boy like you assumed they were Muslims because they wore turbans?


That is of course a shame, as is your childish comment following it. There will always be ignorant people who will use incidents like 9-11 as an excuse for violence. However, bearing in mind that 3,000 people died on that day, as a result of Islamic jihadists, it's a testament to US society that most muslims in America were not targetted on a large scale and that they have the same freedom of worship as their fellow Americans. The same cannot be said for Christians living in so-called 'secular' muslim nations, like Egypt and Bangladesh.

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I already provided you with statistics on capital punishment world-wide last year, but go ahead and ignore them AGAIN.


When you can explain how they are relevant to the debate I will respond to them.

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It doesn't depend upon your desire to portray a billion people (based on your own statistics) as the same.


I never said they were all the same. What I have said is that almost all muslim nations, to a greater or lesser extent, are undemocratic, misogynistic, and religiously intolerant, as a result of the strictures laid down in the Koran, many of which remain unchallenged due to its 'divine' status. While it remains illegal, on pain of death or imprisonment to have the right to question, challenge, and even renounce the Koran, or the teachings of Mohammed this will remain the case.
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