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Take note: Serious heads up..
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Lawrence



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:49 pm    Post subject: Take note: Serious heads up.. Reply with quote

Especially if you call Seoul home. This Friday, the 13th of June, marks
the first anniversary of the accident that killed two middle school girls
north of Seoul. There will be protests, angst -ridden public venting,
calls for the US to leave the motherland, etc. I suggest all non-Koreans to
be especially careful, particularly on the subways. If you are fortunate
enough to be from the U.S., do not advertise it. Watch your ass. Be
careful out there.
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rudyflyer



Joined: 26 Feb 2003
Location: pacing the cage

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

already been demonstrations here on our campus yesterday about this. Got caught in it going to the bus.

Think it may be good advice to lay low no matter where you are on Fri.

When will these people ever grow up? Rolling Eyes
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Real Reality



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:03 pm    Post subject: What Reply with quote

Nearly 60 percent of new college graduates failing to land a job.
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hojucandy



Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: In a better place

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:34 pm    Post subject: yu gotta be kidding Reply with quote

rudyflyer wrote:


When will these people ever grow up? :rol:


perhaps when they feel that their children are safe to walk around without worrying about the activities of an unwelcome foreign force the memebres of which cannot be tried and brought to pay for their negligence.
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Hojucandy here. Although I'm not one to jump on the Anti-American bandwagon too often, I do think that America's persistent refusal to allow any of its citizens abroad to be tried in foreign courts ridiculous. Yes a mistake was made, yes it was the fault American soldiers. However, it didn't happen in Wisconsin or New York. It happened in Korea. So why on earth shouldn't the offenders be subject to Korean justice?

As for waiting for them to "grow up" - that's just callous. Sure, they may be pressing the point a little, but what nation hasn't done that? I'm sure each of us can remember a story in our home news that was aired and analysed for a long time too.

And lastly - on a more sentimental note, maybe the public's continued attention payed toward the death of those two girls gives their parents some comfort. Can you imagine if your own daughters were killed in such a gruesome, horrible way? I hope it never happens to any of us... Sad

Wombat
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hellofaniceguy



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The previous post is FUBAR. You need to get your facts straight. The korean government also has the same "protection rights" when its military is stationed in other countries. SOFA. All countries with military station elsewhere have SOFA. The rules apply to all. So, what's the big hype over the accident in korea?! Heck, korean taxi drivers and bus drivers run over people everyday! Busses are always crashing and killing many passengers, where are the protesters?!? Where were the protesters when a korean military officer killed another korean military officer in Afganistan last year? The death of the two girls was an accident. It was not intentional. No drunk driving, etc. Just an accident. A terrible one. Would the drivers have been jailed in Canada? No. Australia? No? Europe? No. The facts were presented and koreas choose not to agree with them.
They are only protesting because it involves the U.S. Military. Heck, the military wants to pull out of korea and then these same protesters want them to stay! Why should the U.S. babysit the DMZ? It's not their country.
It's because the koreans can't. It's that simple. You can bet one thing, if the U.S. did leave korea and the little guy with the bird's nest hair-do up north decides to "come south," the koreans would be screaming for the U.S. to come back and help them! Yeah, I'm getting a bit carried away...
but the fact remains, the deaths were an accident. If a korean driver kills a pedestrian, under korean law, the matter FIRST gets resolved by MONEY. If the two sides (the victims family and the driver) don't agree then it becomes a criminal matter and the driver might go to jail.
I will again state that if this happen in another country under the same circumstances, the outcome would be the same under the SOFA rules.
It was an accident.
I question as do many other who know the FACTS, why were the girls walking next to these trucks with no gap between them? These trucks are wide and that section of the road is very narror. There was no room for them to walk so why were they trying to walk in that area? They should have waited. It's not their fault nor the drivers; just an unfortunate accident. Another point, these trucks are loud, you can hear them coming, why didn't the girls get the heck out of the way of these trucks? Common sense says MOVE!
I am not defending either side. But an accident is an accident. The protesting is just a monkey see monkey do attitude. Get on the bandwagon. Yeah, Americans are bad! Americans are killers! Americans don't respect other countries laws! Wrong answer. It's called an accident and SOFA. Just like korea has with other countries.


Last edited by hellofaniceguy on Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not implying that the soldiers should be incarcerated. Nor am I questioning the US military presence in the South - everyone knows that it seems to be necessary. Nor, for that matter, am I saying that the US is the only country with diplomatic rights for offenders in military abroad.

All I'm saying is that everyone knows Korea is an emotional country and to cut them a little slack.

Wombat
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wombat wrote:
I have to agree with Hojucandy here. Although I'm not one to jump on the Anti-American bandwagon too often, I do think that America's persistent refusal to allow any of its citizens abroad to be tried in foreign courts ridiculous. Yes a mistake was made, yes it was the fault American soldiers. However, it didn't happen in Wisconsin or New York. It happened in Korea. So why on earth shouldn't the offenders be subject to Korean justice?

As for waiting for them to "grow up" - that's just callous. Sure, they may be pressing the point a little, but what nation hasn't done that? I'm sure each of us can remember a story in our home news that was aired and analysed for a long time too.

And lastly - on a more sentimental note, maybe the public's continued attention payed toward the death of those two girls gives their parents some comfort. Can you imagine if your own daughters were killed in such a gruesome, horrible way? I hope it never happens to any of us... Sad

Wombat


Actually, U.S. citizens abroad are subject to trial in foreign courts. Do you imagine that all Americans possess some sort of diplomatic immunity?

Even U.S. citizens with SOFA status can be and are tried in foreign courts, except in the case of certain narrow exceptions, one of which happened to apply to the deaths of the two young girls.

I do agree with you that we all need to feel empathy with the families of the young girls and appreciate the tragedy. Personally, I would hope that if I suffered a similar loss, I would feel much worse were it hijacked to make cheap political points.
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogbert - I know that Americans are supposed to be subject to laws abroad, but it seems that they usually find an excuse to have trials held on "home soil"; sometimes they don't even bother with the excuses; they simply refuse.

I'm not attacking anyone here - I'm just curious as to why the Americans seem to feel that they are able to go above other countries' heads diplomatically. This may not even be strictly true.

Alas, the parents of those girls don't have any control over what the country seizes for it's endless Love/Hate campaigns with the US.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't want the death of my two daughters used for venemous protests - but whose to say what the parents want? I'm sure they have their fair share of rage over all this....Sad

Wombat
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hellofaniceguy



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geez, don't you read English? Or am I missing something here? Americans do not have special rights or immunity in foreign countries. I WROTE that the MILITARY has SOFA, AS DOES KOREA with other countries. The rules are the same. If an American citizen (non military) runs over a korean in korea, he/she is subject to korean law. The military usually does not, they have SOFA and again SO DOES korea with the countries that its military troops are stationed. It's a two way street.

Last edited by hellofaniceguy on Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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maryk



Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: I was up above it, now i'm down in it

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wombat, you're a piece of work. i'm trying to decide if you're in here giving intentionally retarded opinions just to stir things up, or if you actually believe them. i'm leaning toward the former.

the answer to this question:

So why on earth shouldn't the offenders be subject to Korean justice?

...can be found in your very next post:

All I'm saying is that everyone knows Korea is an emotional country...

you might excuse american military authorities if they refuse to hand over their soldiers to a country in which lynch-mob justice and statements like "The USA must bring the 2 girls back to life!" are commonplace.

if you need more reasons why a SOFA exists, read the following quote from the Korean Ministry of Justice, following the not guilty verdicts of Nino and Walker (italics are mine):

"The Ministry of Justice expresses regret that the jury found Nino not guilty of criminal misconduct simply because the charges against him were not proven."
--November 23, 2002, Korea Herald

if you can read that statement, from the MINISTRY OF JUSTICE (not some over-emotional protester, but the official representative of the korean justice system) and then honestly still wonder why korean justice is a joke, i can't help you.


Last edited by maryk on Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehehehe - intentionally retarded piece of work, that's me! Laughing

Why are people always so needlessly nasty on message boards? It's quite beyond me. And since you're allowed to freely express your scholarly views, allow me a little floorspace to continue embarrasing myself. Laughing

Wombat
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maryk wrote:
wombat, you're a piece of work. i'm trying to decide if you're in here giving intentionally retarded opinions just to stir things up, or if you actually believe them. i'm leaning toward the former.

the answer to this question:

So why on earth shouldn't the offenders be subject to Korean justice?

...can be found in your very next post:

All I'm saying is that everyone knows Korea is an emotional country...

you might excuse american military authorities if they refuse to hand over their soldiers to a country in which lynch-mob justice and statements like "The USA must bring the 2 girls back to life!" are commonplace.


Incidentally, if the US officials can't tell the difference between hysterical mob rhetoric and the desires of the Korean officials, then they're dafter than any of us feared. Rolling Eyes

Wombat
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maryk



Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: I was up above it, now i'm down in it

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Incidentally, if the US officials can't tell the difference between hysterical mob rhetoric and the desires of the Korean officials


read the quote from the MOJ, they're one and the same.

Quote:
Hehehehe - intentionally retarded piece of work, that's me!


well, i admire your honesty.

i suppose you don't see the slightest bit of irony in claiming that koreans are sticklers for the rules and then consequently begging people to give them a break because they're so emotional they can't control themselves...

honestly, if you want people to give hyper-emotional koreans, be they protesters or MOJ officials, a break....you're in the wrong place.

you know as well as i do that koreans didn't give a rat's ass about those 2 girls until the world cup was over. the father of one of the girls said so in an interview a few days ago. he said he was writing media outlets for 2 weeks telling them about the accident and no one gave a shat. why? their emotions were too heavily invested in the red devils and korean superiority.

once the world cup was over, those emotions were conveniently redirected to the next hate-america venue available.

unbelievable. you haven't presented a single viable argument as to why american troops in korea should fall under the korean justice system, except to say "give koreans a break."

and you know this.


Last edited by maryk on Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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cubase



Joined: 28 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reviewing that quote from maryk - which I remember well from last winter - it's clear that the Korean officials were bent on satisfying the hysterical mob.

I'm afraid the usually sensible Wombat has misspoken, without full knowledge of the situation. Hojucandy, on the other hand, is likely patting himself on that back for a troll well done.
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