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Recruiting for the US army
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supernick



Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Quote:
Anyway for those who oppose the war, why don't they go over to Iraq and support the insurgents? That would make a powerful statement about THEIR belief in their values.



Not a very well thought out post, though it does remind me of a question that you once asked regarding torture. You did ask me a year or so back if I would condone torture if it would save the lives of members of my family. Kind of an extreme question, but that��s you.

You have told us about how Saddam had thrown prisoners into wood chippers. You latter clarified to say that he did not do it personally. My question to you u is this:

Would you support such cruel measures (Wood chippers. Public executions) for punishment to prisoners if it proved effective in combating the insurgency in Iraq?

SIS has also said that he has not read anything on this board that suggests that anyone supports the insurgents. Some of us have opposed the war for one reason or another. I was at one time in favour of an invasion until Blitz tabled his report at the UN. But we do know that there are some you who have supported this war though they know it clearly violates international law (as what the law clearly states) and these same people get up in arms with the insurgency and accuse them of horrific crimes, which they have clearly taken part in but they seen only too pleased to look the other way when the invading forces have committed the same or other breaches of international law.

Another question for you: If Saddam was still in power, and a group of insurgents were trying to overthrow the government in Iraq, would you support the insurgents though their actions have cost the lives of many innocent people?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supernick wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Quote:
Anyway for those who oppose the war, why don't they go over to Iraq and support the insurgents? That would make a powerful statement about THEIR belief in their values.



(1) Not a very well thought out post, though it does remind me of a question that you once asked regarding torture. You did ask me a year or so back if I would condone torture if it would save the lives of members of my family. Kind of an extreme question, but that��s you.

(2) You have told us about how Saddam had thrown prisoners into wood chippers. You latter clarified to say that he did not do it personally. My question to you u is this:

(3) Would you support such cruel measures (Wood chippers. Public executions) for punishment to prisoners if it proved effective in combating the insurgency in Iraq?

(4) SIS has also said that he has not read anything on this board that suggests that anyone supports the insurgents. Some of us have opposed the war for one reason or another. I was at one time in favour of an invasion until Blitz tabled his report at the UN. But we do know that there are some you who have supported this war though they know it clearly violates international law (as what the law clearly states) and these same people get up in arms with the insurgency and accuse them of horrific crimes, which they have clearly taken part in but they seen only too pleased to look the other way when the invading forces have committed the same or other breaches of international law.

(5) Another question for you: If Saddam was still in power, and a group of insurgents were trying to overthrow the government in Iraq, would you support the insurgents though their actions have cost the lives of many innocent people?


(numbers are mine)

1. For the sarcasm-challenged (that's you Mr. supernick) that post was a parody of the frequent posts I see from the Left on here asking why those who support the war, don't take up arms. As for the extreme question, of course it was extreme. My intent was to see if you opposed torture under ANY circumstances.

2. A dictator usually has other people do his dirty work for him. Nothing suprising there.

3. No I would not. Why overthrow Saddam if we are just going to be like him? I do however support other measures like sleep deprivation IF reasonable cause can be shown that such measures are needed.

4. Really? What court has claimed the Iraq war is a violation of international law? Name of court, judge(s) and prosecutor(s) please. As for breaches of international law, I haven't noticed the U.S. army placing car bombs where they can blow up civilians.

5. I do not support the killing of innocent people under any circumstances. But if it comes to that, the insurgents are deliberately targeting such people, whereas the U.S. is not.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:53 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
3. No I would not. Why overthrow Saddam if we are just going to be like him? I do however support other measures like sleep deprivation IF reasonable cause can be shown that such measures are needed.


Exactly. Why become Saddam. What do you define as "reasonable cause"?

Quote:
4. Really? What court has claimed the Iraq war is a violation of international law? Name of court, judge(s) and prosecutor(s) please. As for breaches of international law, I haven't noticed the U.S. army placing car bombs where they can blow up civilians.


All signatories to the UN charter agree not to attack sovereign nations. Only self-defense is allowed. The self-defense argument about WMD has evaporated.

Quote:
5. I do not support the killing of innocent people under any circumstances. But if it comes to that, the insurgents are deliberately targeting such people, whereas the U.S. is not.


Is it "under any circumstances", or just if they are not being targeted?

This is a contradiction.
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supernick



Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TUM. Go back and read my post again. I said the war violates international law as the law clearly states. The war also violates UN provisions. Now,there are some who say the war is legal, but anyone with half a brain knows what the law clearly states, and I guess that's why you still haven't figured it out.

Maybe you can find where it says the war is legal. And don't go into previous resolutions for justification because those are with the UN and not individual states. Further, your perch boy's legal advice from M. Shaw doesn't hold water. He said that the presumption of WMD would justify a war, but the big question is this: Who is to provide evidence of WMD, MI5 or the Un weapon inspectors? If you said MI5, you're wrong, and it was the MI5 that Blair based his justification for the war. Only the UNSC could decide on what would be a breach. As for WMD, there was no evidence to conclude that Iraq had any such weapons, and from all reports, there was nothing there to suggest that Iraq had such weapons. It was only the CIA and MI5 that made such claims, and we now know that they really didn't know diddly squat. Weapon inspectors were in Iraq days before the war doing their job, and the had asked only for a few months more to conclude their work in destroying all weapons and materials, but the US and the UK didn't want to wait. And the result? I know, you'll blame it all all the insurgents.

Regardless of whether or not the war was legal, it's lack of legitimacy is causing many of the problems that we see now.

Another thing to consider, is the evidence that the US tabled at the UN in regards to Iraq was far different that Hans Blitz report. Even Powell knew that people weren't buying it. It turns out that the CIA was very wrong, but that's fine for some of you. Go to war on a fallacy and then continue to dream even with all the evidence against you.


I like how you claim that the insurgents target innocent people deliberately but the U.S. has not. I guess that means that it's ok for the US and the others to kill innocent people by accident, or by dropping cluster bombs, but we know how you don't want to talk about that.

My guess is this; If the US wasn't in Iraq, then there wouldn't be a problem with insurgents.

I can go on and remind you that the US has committed war crimes in Iraq, just as the insurgents have done, but that would be just a waste of time. Oh, but that's just a few bad apples, right?

I just wonder if you really think that US soldiers fired on innocent protesters by mistake. And that was before any insurgent attacks.

I'm not like you. I will condemn all who engage in such acts and ask that they all be brought to justice, but you think that it's only the insurgents that have committed war crimes. Maybe a few token soldiers will ever be convicted, and that's fine for you. The rule of law was thrown out the window at the start of the war. Why would you think that others should follow it?


Last edited by supernick on Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All signatories to the UN charter agree not to attack sovereign nations. Only self-defense is allowed. The self-defense argument about WMD has evaporated.


Is it War against the US to fund terrorists? Is it war against the to harbor them? Is it was against the US to shoot as US planes? Is it war against the US to try to Is it war against the US to incite violence agains the US? Is it was against the US to try to kill a US president?
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
Quote:
All signatories to the UN charter agree not to attack sovereign nations. Only self-defense is allowed. The self-defense argument about WMD has evaporated.


Is it War against the US to fund terrorists?

No it isn't, and Saddam didn't do that. He gave money to the families of people who blew themselves up in the Palestinian struggle against Israel. A struggle against Israel is not a war against the US.

Quote:
Is it war against the to harbor them?

Not unless it is war against Cuba to harbor a man who has waged covert war against Castro for decades.

Quote:
Is it was against the US to shoot as US planes?

Were the planes flying over US airspece? No, they weren't. Odd how you left that part out.

Quote:
Is it war against the US to try to Is it war against the US to incite violence agains the US?

Is it war to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater? you give no specifics, of course, but in the US all manner of such kind of speech is still legal, even with the Patriot Act. It's because we are better than them.

Quote:
Is it was against the US to try to kill a US president?

If there is enough evidence, Saddam should be brought to the US to stand trial. Why hasn't he been, then?

"All signatories to the UN charter agree not to attack sovereign nations."

Did Iraq attack the US? Or did the US attack Iraq?
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Alias



Joined: 24 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Army missed recruitment goal despite lowering numbers for May:

Army Falls Short




Interesting article about some of the desperate tactics the Marines are using:

When Marine recruiters go way beyond the call
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