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korean female co-workers
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captain kirk



Joined: 29 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:01 am    Post subject: korean female co-workers Reply with quote

been at this hagwon for four months. getting a little stir-crazy, antsy, and besides, it's nearing the standard hagwon holiday time where the hagwons, in my experience, shut down for a week. so i ask my boss how long is the vacation, and when, and is it paid? at the same time saying a week, late july, and paid is the standard. no problem. that night the korean teacher stays late. he looks mean, stern. she is in tears. they are having a heated discussion. the next day i ask what happened. she gets a three day vacation. paid or not i didn't ask. she has been working 12 months straight, already, at this hagwon. she is conscientious, practically indispensable. she has been with the school from its start and worked industriously, idealistically giving all she's got to make it go.
damn.
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FierceInvalid



Joined: 16 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hate the double standard between the Korean teachers and native teachers. It often makes for an uncomfortable situation in the teacher's room, and it just ain't right.
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IconsFanatic



Joined: 19 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koreans become right arseholes when they become bosses. My boss and his senior employee were once co-workers, and he invited her to uproot and come to Busan to work for him. Then he gets his wife to make her work 7 days a week. Yes, 7 days a week.

No idea why Koreans accept this. There's millions of hagwon jobs out there, even for the Koreans. I'd just tell them where to shove their job, personally.


Last edited by IconsFanatic on Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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William Beckerson
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other day I made the mistake of joking to one of my korean female coworkers that she should get 2.4 million won/ month for allof her hard work.

She misunderstood me: "YOU GET 2.4?!"

"No! No! I think you should get it."

Thus suggesting to me that I currently have in my pocket more money than her entire paycheck. That's why you should always be nice to your partner teachers
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hate the double standard between the Korean teachers and native teachers. It often makes for an uncomfortable situation in the teacher's room, and it just ain't right.



What ain't right? You get paid more. So what? We native speakers come at a higher price. Could they get you over here for what they pay the Korean teachers? No. You're what sells. You're worth more, you're paid more. Shut up.
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OverLeft



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Location: Listening to Radiohead "I might be wrong"

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie, I think you should feel fortunate for the opportunity to do what you're doing. It's really disappointing that such ignorant sentiment so often prevails here. Your statement is so blatantly false and harmful that I'm having a hard time figuring out whether or not you're just being polemical. Confused

Think about this for a second..(take a few more if you need them)
- Your market value is in no way related to actual worth or real value. Sure, they have to pay you a certain amount to attract you, however this doesn't even have a tenuous determinate relationship to what they pay native Korean teachers. If they paid Korean teachers more would that stop you from coming?
-In fact this is a perfect example of the inconsistency of the market value=real value argument/assumption. What makes you think you're worth more? Without you, they'd just get one of the other talented, genius(after all you speak English), native English speakers. Without the Korean teachers, who would do all that paperwork, who would translate our dumbass attempts at teaching into something kids can understand?... etc, etc,..etc..
In truth, one could argue they are worth more; it's just our lucky break that we work within a system full of contradictions. What's worth more: water or gold? Don't fool yourself...... Wink
-I'm assuming it had to have been polemics, nobody could be so blindly ignorant.
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you've made firm friends in your workplace, sorted out a workable strategy and routine finally, reached a workable understanding with your students, etc its a big sacrifice to uproot to somewhere new just because your boss is an a**hole. They're all a**holes anyway, goes with the territory. They never seem to appreciate that the morale of their workers is vitally important. They always think their workers are untrustworthy and out to sc**w them over, because thats generally what they try to do to their workers...Power corrupts. The sad thing is that no matter how cool a person you are as a humble worker, if you became the boss you'd probably gradually become the same...

Secondly I believe most foreign teachers deserve higher pay than the locals. Why? because we daily have to endure higher stress levels, that they know nothing about. In fact very few koreans know what we go through because they never leave the comfort of their hometown, let alone try to live in a foreign country for a year or so..
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leftover wrote:

Quote:
It's really disappointing that such ignorant sentiment so often prevails here.


My "sentiment" is fully informed, I can assure you. When I worked at a hogwon I got paid more than my Korean counterparts. And I got paid on time. My Korean colleagues were paid less and often late. Management knew we would bolt if they cheated us, so they didn't try. They also knew the Koreans would kow-tow, so they did try. Simple as that.

Quote:
Your statement is so blatantly false and harmful that I'm having a hard time figuring out whether or not you're just being polemical.


My statement is not false. If I weren't worth what I was getting paid then I wouldn't have been getting paid that amount. I don't see the harm in such a simple (and true) statement.

Quote:
What makes you think you're worth more? Without you, they'd just get one of the other talented, genius(after all you speak English), native English speakers
.

Likewise for the Korean staff, from teacher on down to the ajumma who comes in to clean the toilet. They'd just get somebody else to do it. And they would pay them less.

Quote:
Without the Korean teachers, who would do all that paperwork, who would translate our dumbass attempts at teaching into something kids can understand?... etc, etc,..etc..


Without the key grips, foley artists, editors, costume designers, set designers, boom operators...etc., who would get Robert Deniro's image up on the big screen? I got a feeling people don't open their wallets to see who was best boy.

Quote:
In truth, one could argue they are worth more


You can. I won't.
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OverLeft



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Location: Listening to Radiohead "I might be wrong"

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie, you can't be serious, is it really possible that this kind of simple analysis is beyond you? Think for just one moment; I didn't once say that your market value was incorrect... this is arbitrary.. the market pays what the almighty market decides... this is a trivial fact, almost so trivial I can't believe I need to clarify.
However what I did say, and what you seemed to conveniently skip over in your reply is that there is in fact a difference between market value and real worth or value.... We see this kind of fallacious self justifying tripe all around us, people equating worth with the amoral, market dictated quantitative value of their salaries... pathetic really...

Leslie you said:
"My statement is not false. If I weren't worth what I was getting paid then I wouldn't have been getting paid that amount. I don't see the harm in such a simple (and true) statement."

-OK who's worth more: teachers or popstars? The market says popstars; is this true?

-And since you didn't give it much thought last time...: What's worth more: water or gold? Tell me what you think after you're thirsty and locked inside the federal reserve for a few days..

-Does anyone else get what I'm saying?


Last edited by OverLeft on Sat Jun 21, 2003 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hank Scorpio



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OverLeft wrote:

-OK who's worth more: teachers or popstars? The market says popstars; is this true?

-And since you didn't give it much thought last time...: What's worth more: water or gold? Tell me what you think after you're thirsty and locked inside the federal reserve for a few days..

-Does anyone else get what I'm saying?


I get what you're saying, but I also "get" that it's nonsensical hippy crap.

Having native speakers teach children is for whatever reason, right or wrong, of value to Koreans. They value this so much that they're willing to pay native speakers to come here and teach.

However unpleasant you may find it, we're intrinsically more valuable to Hagwons than the Korean teachers are. We provide the "prestige" to these Hagwons, which unfortunately in this society the Korean teachers don't bring.

Is it fair? No, but suck it up.
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OverLeft



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Location: Listening to Radiohead "I might be wrong"

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the ad hominem fallacy's been worn out by all sides, I'll try to refrain. You can use the terms market value or whatever else, but don't equate this with worth. I believe you are worth exactly the same as your Korean co-workers... and as I mentioned before some could argue that the Korean teachers are worth more.

Yes Scorpio thank-you, again for the third time, an unbelievably trivial point must be made; market values do exist for various reasons (right or wrong), but this has nothing to do with worth; this is all I've been saying from the beginning, we get paid more because of certain competitive advantages we have in an inconsistent and contradictory economic system. I think it is really sad and shallow that some of us(all of us at times) judge our worth and that of others according to paychecks...


Last edited by OverLeft on Sat Jun 21, 2003 12:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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captain kirk



Joined: 29 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sometimes i see the boss talking to the korean female teacher. he has a stern, fierce expression and is spitting some stuff out and she has her head down, and is smiling in an obedient, accomodating way. but she'll sit down with him after work every couple of months on some point she has to make. too much work/responsibility. extra work tossed onto her plate, on short notice. she'll be pushing her point, and he'll look like he's holding his own, but just. but because of the male-run society -the patriarchy- she gets 'some'-thing but not all of it. and it breaks off to a completely friendly, everyone in their place, smooth, harmonious, rounded edged workplace. but the boss wins out. and when he's pressing his dominance he looks like he is confident the entire foundation of patriarchalism is hanging over her every peep. 'father', boss. where is there she can go? she can't overthrow 'her dad' (are all men dad in a patriarchy?; why korean men figure they are 'it' ) there are flare-ups, but it's like 'all in the family'. some really intense stubborn runs at it, but the walls stand firm.
how could you overthrow 'big brother' (1984), when it's, at heart, programming to be dutiful to your father that over-rides?
re; the pay discrepancy between the korean teacher and the foreign teacher. i've had some korean teachers who resented i got more pay. and that just made the 'stress pay' argument of rapier's more confirmed. i'd also throw in 'being civil to students' pay. since it's a trick to retain and gain students when they are tired of hagwons, period. and they sometimes let fly their inclination to test the teacher. the pay is earned by keeping the students, yet repelling their sh*t-flinging in an 'attractive' way(lord!). which the korean teachers must manage to do, too! they do the same job, for less pay. so i'd like to try to be optomisitic and friendly with them during breaks to put them at ease (me too). but they do not take their work home with them, the 'other work' of living in a foreign culture, cultural misunderstanding, being a minority representing one's 'alien-nation', etc. the latter is what our higher pay is stemming from.


Last edited by captain kirk on Sat Jun 21, 2003 12:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Real Reality



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does a Korean wowan call her boyfriend (or lover) "older brother" (oppa)?

oppa: a girl's elder brother
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
-And since you didn't give it much thought last time...: What's worth more: water or gold? Tell me what you think after you're thirsty and locked inside the federal reserve for a few days..

-Does anyone else get what I'm saying?



OL, we all get what you're saying. You're talking about the diamond/water paradox. We all learned it in Econ 101. The only problem with it is we don't live in your hypothetical desert and, therefore, aren't confronted with your hypothetical situation.


Quote:
-OK who's worth more: teachers or popstars? The market says popstars; is this true?


Perhaps we have a problem with this word worth. I'm talking strictly about market value. I see no fallacy in my statement. I'm not talking pie-in-the-sky, you are.

To address your question...
For society as a whole, teachers are worth more (if I do say so myself). But teachers are not going to fetch more than their customers are willing or able to pay. However, parents, students, and schools are going to spend more on me than they are ever going to spend on Robert Deniro. They'll pay up to $60.00 an hour to see me. If they want to have the Deniro experience they only have to pay about $3.00 an hour. Yet Deniro will rake in more cash in one year than I'll ever see in a lifetime.

Do I feel any less a man? You bet I do! We're talking about Deniro here.
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hellofaniceguy



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The low wages for all workers are the fault of the person signing the contract. Period. No one forces anyone to sign a B.S. contract or forces them to come to korea. I think that foreign teachers SHOULD be paid more than korean teachers just as foreign teachers in our own countries should be paid more than their counterpart. It's a speciality.
I'm going to go WAAAYYY out now and post this; korea has far too many korean teachers teaching ESL even when they can't hold a conversation in English. I see every day, the bad speaking and writing habits that they pass on to the students. And for that matter, I have seen many native English speaking teachers who should not be teaching ESL! But that's besides the point. Until we ALL wise up (koreans and non koreans), and stop signing B*LLS&%T contracts, it won't change. Schools know what David Hannum said (PT Barnum did NOT say it first, actually, it was said by his competitor) "There's a sucker born every minute." Schools know that someone WILL sign B.S. contract for low wages and teach 7/8/9 classes a day. You koreans need to stop being exploited and stand up to the owner. Start thinking OUTSIDE of the box and quit thinking like koreans even though you are korean! Get rid of that tunnel vision! Just because that's they way it's done in korean does not cut it. You can bet one thing, if korean culture and style were that great, the whole world would be following korea. I hate to see anyone being taken advantage of but no one can use you unless you let them. I see now that the public school teachers are in an uproar and are striking. That's great! Maybe it'll get better for them. But unless the hokwon teachers stand up for themselves, it won't change.
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