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Mr. Literal
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Location: Third rock from the Sun.
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 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:07 am Post subject: Re: YBM: Tell me I'm crazy!! :-) |
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| Voyeur wrote: |
| I have a pretty impressive resume |
The schools could care less. Hell, most would hire you even if you had a criminal record.
| Voyeur wrote: |
| But I do have lots of public speaking and speech writing and other tangentally applicable experience- for whatever that is worth. |
It isn't worth squat over here.
| Voyeur wrote: |
| I am....white.... |
And we have a winner! This is why you're being hired, my friend. And because English is your native language.
| Voyeur wrote: |
| YBM has offered me a position for 1.7 Million Won, 95 hours / Mo., no kindy, and no weekends with no classes before 10 am and no split shifts - all in writing. |
Bwaaaaahh! And you're falling for this?? They ALL offer "it" in writing. Contracts and sticking to one's word don't mean shit in Korea.
| Voyeur wrote: |
| I was told that the "intangibles" of my resume were what got me the job over others with greater teaching experience....In my offers from other non-YBM / corporate schools they had the flexibility to remunerate me for my non-teaching, but to them still valuable, experience. |
This is absolutely hilarious. Man, this recruiter or owner is an expert at swindling. I am amused, indeed.
You are being totally snowed. I'll let you in on a little secret: They want you because you're white and English is your native language. Period.
Methinks that you would have much difficulty in Korea. |
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BTM
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Back in the saddle.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:03 am Post subject: |
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On the other hand, you could just say 'what the hell' and take the plunge. If you're lucky enough to find decent people to work with - something that you won't know until you actually get wherever you're going - a few hundred thousand won one way or the other won't mean diddly.
Hidden underneath the snark above  is a reasonable point - searching for fairness and professionalism and all of that sort of good stuff over here will more often than not just drive you loopy. Relax and let the weirdness wash over you, and all will be well.
Single accommo can be a very good thing, though. |
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sparkx
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: thekimchipot.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| On the other hand, you could just say 'what the hell' and take the plunge. If you're lucky enough to find decent people to work with - something that you won't know until you actually get wherever you're going - a few hundred thousand won one way or the other won't mean diddly. |
The wisest thing I've heard yet in this thread. I know people making above average coin who are miserable as hell and people making below average pay having a blast (count me as one of the latter).
I work for a chain similar to YBM -- I get far less than 2.0 mil BUT -- I have fully paid single accomodations and an American director...No stress, teaching adults, all good..
Not to mention the fringe benefits of teaching adults ($ if ya know what i mean $) |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:44 am Post subject: |
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BTM,
Is it just me, or does your avatar have an unusual glow these days?  |
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BTM
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Back in the saddle.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
| Is it just me, or does your avatar have an unusual glow these days? |
That's the holy fire of righteousness!
Or maybe just my bright-red rudolph-nose from all the beer I've been drinking lately.
It's not unemployment, it's a holiday! |
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Squid
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Location: Sunny Anyang
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Just finished a year at YBM (ECC).
Careful now, YBM ECC is kids- only kids, and they drive you nuts after a while. If you've applied through their "Adult division website" then ok, adults you'll get.
YBM- Total babysitting from go to whoa, Cash on arrival: W200,000- and I mean as I got off the bus, put up for a few days in a hotel close to the school then shepherded into a respectable apartment, by which time my full return airfare was reimbursed- again cash.
Good job I can stand on my head, a prerequisite for being able to work for them.
Had a blast with a guy from LA for the first few weeks until they found my girl and I an apartment and yes, they took 200,000 each of the first three months, which I'm looking forward to getting back in a few days time.
Paid on time, every time and worked 6x40 min. classes a day- except when they ask for you to overtime, then maybe 8 or even 10- zombie material after those weeks but the pay stub glows in the dark.
Two bugbears:
1: You don't work, you don't get paid (for holidays)- seeing as no-one works on the holidays you don't get paid for them and the rest of the month you work extra to make up the diff. Clear as mud.
2: They misrepresent Daerim school as Yongdungpo, the latter has far more services for the newcomer, the former is, quite frankly, a dump with nothing but drunks and wifebeaters going about their crappy business- lucky me, I sat out a year there 
Any more info. you need on them, let me know.
Yours Squidly |
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Squid
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Location: Sunny Anyang
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, one more thing, if you don't share accom. they charge you 200,000 a month (Fifty bucks a week) for a 2 bed apartment, the way to go, or more recently, a more modern "studio" (Read: Shoebox), not the way...
Squidly |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Voyeur wrote: |
But to mee what matters is how classes are scheduled. If at YBM there is a 5 minute break between classes and at other schools there is a 5 minute break as well ON Top of the 10 minute unoffical break then apples to apples you are still spending 120 hours at the non-YBM school compared to 90 for YBM (the 5 minute breaks basically cancelling each other out. In the end I don't really caer what you are doing for the 120 or 90 hours - teaching ior sitting on one's arse for 10% of them. In the end you are still there instead of somewhere you might choose to be. |
I agree with you 100% here, the time you walk in the door to start work and the time you walk out a free man are far more important than how many minutes of teaching, how much prep time, and how many classes you are teaching, IMHO.
Case in point: In both my current job and my previous job I teach 25 classroom hours a week for the same money. At my previous job I spent 9.5-11 hours a day on site due to split shifts, at my current job I'm in by 1:30 and out by 7:30 every day. Guess where I'm happier?
1.7 a month with shared accommodation is a crappy deal for teaching kids full time any way you slice it. Salary this low and shared housing should both be dealbreakers. YBM doesn't exactly have a reputation that's good enough to make working there worth overlooking this.
Voyeur, since money seems to be your number one motivator, I am surprised that you are even considering this raw deal.
If you're concerned about having no splits so that you have time available to teach privates insist on no kindies, and don't go for adult hogwons. Also insist that your work hours be specified in your contract, as in "The workday will begin no sooner than X:00 and end no later than Y:00.", and make sure that the difference between x and y is one you can live with. |
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William Beckerson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Bah! I have no love for hagwon cowards!
You will be screwed in some way that you never considered when you get here. There is no such thing as a job to order here in Korea. If you want the YBM job, go there. If you want a kiddy hagwon, go there.
Regardless, you wont know what you'll be happy with until you get here. |
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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:04 am Post subject: hmm |
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You said that one reason you aren't getting ahead in Canada is your lifestyle. What makes you think that you will have a lifestyle here that will allow you to save? If you teach some privates on the side and are disiplined you can save around $20,000. YOU might say wow I can do that, but it is easier said than done. IF you don't mind doing things on the cheap than you can save lots of money here, but if you want be a little extravagant than it will cost you. I can have a meal at a korean restaurant for less then 5 dollars Cdn. Most meals would be under $6 or 7. IF you want to eat western food a lot then it starts to get expensive. If you like go out and drink a lot then you won't be saving much money. I know some people here who haven't been able to save money due to their party habits.
Since you seem to have a good lifestyle in Canada it might be hard for you to give it up here and then you have the same situation as you are back home. |
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Voyeur
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Teaching adults is very different than teaching students. It's a far easier job. As such, people are willing to work for less and accept things like split shifts in exchange for not having to spend time controlling the class. |
Unfortunately this was teaching Children but no kindy. I keep hearing exactly opposite commments. Many say teaching adults i harder because you have to really know your stuff and adults will make bad comments if you have a bad day teaching and can be real sticklers. Other say children are easier? Why do you feel adults are easier?
| FierceInvalid wrote: |
But this is compared with kiddie hagwons. At YBM you teach adults. Worth a pay cut IMO, but I'm not the original poster. Do you have an age preference for students?
I didn't know YBM was offering contracts without splits. Hmmm... |
Again why adults over kids? And apparently even though I am teaching kids 2 of 5 days aa week will have spilt shifts as I look into it more.
| Mr. Literal wrote: |
| Voyeur wrote: |
| I have a pretty impressive resume |
The schools could care less. Hell, most would hire you even if you had a criminal record. |
I am not ignorant of the fact that in many if not most cases this is irrelevant nor am I bragging. I am just posting all the facts. On the other hand when a decent job gets more appliacations from white males who all have no specific ESL teaching experience SOMETHING must be the tie-breaker right?
| Voyeur wrote: |
al
| Voyeur wrote: |
| But I do have lots of public speaking and speech writing and other tangentally applicable experience- for whatever that is worth. |
It isn't worth squat over here. |
See Above
| Mr. Literal wrote: |
| Voyeur wrote: |
| I am....white.... |
And we have a winner! This is why you're being hired, my friend. And because English is your native language. |
Again, just putting down all of the facts and other factors have to come into play somewhat to decide between equally alive, equally white, equally teaching inexperienced, and equally North American corpses with pulses when 2 or more chase the same decent job opening.
| Mr. Literal wrote: |
| Voyeur wrote: |
| YBM has offered me a position for 1.7 Million Won, 95 hours / Mo., no kindy, and no weekends with no classes before 10 am and no split shifts - all in writing. |
Bwaaaaahh! And you're falling for this?? They ALL offer "it" in writing. Contracts and sticking to one's word don't mean *beep* in Korea. |
In fact it is two split shifts a week. But it would seem logical that a YBM owned school (not franchise) in downtown Seoul is less likely to abridge its conracts that smaller independents in the middle of nowhere. But this is hardly proof positive that I would be safe from such behaviour either.
| Mr. Literal wrote: |
| Voyeur wrote: |
| I was told that the "intangibles" of my resume were what got me the job over others with greater teaching experience....In my offers from other non-YBM / corporate schools they had the flexibility to remunerate me for my non-teaching, but to them still valuable, experience. |
This is absolutely hilarious. Man, this recruiter or owner is an expert at swindling. I am amused, indeed.
You are being totally snowed. I'll let you in on a little secret: They want you because you're white and English is your native language. Period.
Methinks that you would have much difficulty in Korea. |
You mistake me relaying what was said of for necessarily believeing it. since i am the one with no Korean experience I thought it best to pass on his comments - good and bad in an objective way and get comments on them from veterans. Once again though, if I am suposed to find these far better offers and have never taught in schools or ESL before I would assume that some other aspect of my resume, refernces, presentation, etc... might come into play in some way if only to differentiate between finding say a decent 1.8 million and a decent 2.0 million job etc... But perhaps even that shows a decided lack of undrstanding. Perhaps my letter of introduction and resume and references sould be half a page with two good pictures and the lines:
ACME Universal ESL Korea Application (cover letter, resume, references all in one - just add water)
------Instert two pictures here-----------
tall, athletic white male with no teaching experience but has a strong pulse. Native english speaker with BA and TESOL. Ready to work inmmediately.
I could have skipped everything else and just send that off. It be way easier.
| Squid wrote: |
Just finished a year at YBM (ECC).
Careful now, YBM ECC is kids- only kids, and they drive you nuts after a while. If you've applied through their "Adult division website" then ok, adults you'll get.
YBM- Total babysitting from go to whoa, Cash on arrival: W200,000- and I mean as I got off the bus, put up for a few days in a hotel close to the school then shepherded into a respectable apartment, by which time my full return airfare was reimbursed- again cash.
Good job I can stand on my head, a prerequisite for being able to work for them. |
So teaching KIds is easy there but it gets psychologically draining? Once agin what is your opinion on the adult vs. kids deal? I have no set preference - should I?
| Squid wrote: |
| Paid on time, every time and worked 6x40 min. classes a day- except when they ask for you to overtime, then maybe 8 or even 10- zombie material after those weeks but the pay stub glows in the dark. |
So in fact their 95 hour regukar work week promise is not BS. YOu aren't working like 8 classes a day normally - is 6 x 40 min a day hard? Would yyou agree that for amount of time spent working 1.7 for 95 odes in fact equal out to say 2.0 for 120 and the shorter work month is not some scam?
| Squid wrote: |
Sorry, one more thing, if you don't share accom. they charge you 200,000 a month (Fifty bucks a week) for a 2 bed apartment, the way to go, or more recently, a more modern "studio" (Read: Shoebox), not the way...
Squidly |
Thanks Squidly. Supposedly I would be staying solo in a two bedroom to start but they say that they cannot guarantee I won't get a roomie later on. I would really like solo dwelling - do you think I can push them for this deal? SUpposedly the district is fairly upscale - really upscale - so that is why they say that they really can't offer single dwelling. Would they perhaps charge more than 200k ofr me to stay solo if their own rent/mortgage costs are off the charts for the apartments in that area?
| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| Voyeur wrote: |
But to mee what matters is how classes are scheduled. If at YBM there is a 5 minute break between classes and at other schools there is a 5 minute break as well ON Top of the 10 minute unoffical break then apples to apples you are still spending 120 hours at the non-YBM school compared to 90 for YBM (the 5 minute breaks basically cancelling each other out. In the end I don't really caer what you are doing for the 120 or 90 hours - teaching ior sitting on one's arse for 10% of them. In the end you are still there instead of somewhere you might choose to be. |
I agree with you 100% here, the time you walk in the door to start work and the time you walk out a free man are far more important than how many minutes of teaching, how much prep time, and how many classes you are teaching, IMHO.
Case in point: In both my current job and my previous job I teach 25 classroom hours a week for the same money. At my previous job I spent 9.5-11 hours a day on site due to split shifts, at my current job I'm in by 1:30 and out by 7:30 every day. Guess where I'm happier?
1.7 a month with shared accommodation is a crappy deal for teaching kids full time any way you slice it. Salary this low and shared housing should both be dealbreakers. YBM doesn't exactly have a reputation that's good enough to make working there worth overlooking this.
Voyeur, since money seems to be your number one motivator, I am surprised that you are even considering this raw deal.
If you're concerned about having no splits so that you have time available to teach privates insist on no kindies, and don't go for adult hogwons. Also insist that your work hours be specified in your contract, as in "The workday will begin no sooner than X:00 and end no later than Y:00.", and make sure that the difference between x and y is one you can live with. |
What if there were no split shifts and the hours on site really were representative of 95 hours relative to the normal 120 and I got single dwelling would it then be worth it at 1.7 if I really did have lots more effective extra time and my classes were 6 x 40 min a day of kids but no kindies?
| ulsanchris wrote: |
You said that one reason you aren't getting ahead in Canada is your lifestyle. What makes you think that you will have a lifestyle here that will allow you to save? If you teach some privates on the side and are disiplined you can save around $20,000. YOU might say wow I can do that, but it is easier said than done. IF you don't mind doing things on the cheap than you can save lots of money here, but if you want be a little extravagant than it will cost you. I can have a meal at a korean restaurant for less then 5 dollars Cdn. Most meals would be under $6 or 7. IF you want to eat western food a lot then it starts to get expensive. If you like go out and drink a lot then you won't be saving much money. I know some people here who haven't been able to save money due to their party habits.
Since you seem to have a good lifestyle in Canada it might be hard for you to give it up here and then you have the same situation as you are back home. |
Agreed but my lifestyle was more a function of the business that I was in and that kept you out at a lot of parties and such which once there one tends to be tempted to keep partying later into the nite etc... Apperances had to be kept up and I ended up hanging with the wealthier elite set who always partied at the expensive places. Farnkly they were no more fun than the less well to do partying at the reasonable places. SO simply by going downscale I could party as much as I did and save tons more money with a better time and better friends. And withopt that crowd and the work obligations I can also party less often IMO. Trsut me, I'm mega burned out on the partying and need some recuperation time  |
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Voyeur
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Bottom Line Question:
I am still in negotiations with this YBM Chongdam ECC.
Assuming it was a no split shits, 9:30 am earliest, limited Kindy teachig contract for 1.7 Million at 95 hours and given they have 40 min classes what kind of schedule would be required for it to be worth it i.e. for me to actually only be working 80% as hard, as long, and as many on-site hours as the guy at 2.0 for 120?
And of course there is still the shared apt situation which they say is necessary because of the high costs of the Chongdam district. |
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Mr. Literal
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Location: Third rock from the Sun.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Good luck. You are really, really going to need it.
I suggest that you hope for the best and expect the worse. Also, don't put so much faith in what your prospective employer says. They LIE, flat-out LIE to your face.
Report back to us how you're feeling when you get off the plane and are immediately whisked to the school and put into the classroom with a book (if you're lucky), a piece of chalk (again, if you're lucky), and 15 eight-year olds. I can hear the conversation now:
You: But I was supposed to be taken to my apartment to rest. I just spent 15 hours on a plane. I'm hungry, tired, and I need a shower and nap.
Your boss: But we need you to teach now.
You: But I don't know what to do with these kids. What about all the training I was promised?
Your boss: Oh, you will figure it out. Bye-bye. (Shuts door).
Same scenario, without book and chalk:
You: But what am I supposed to do with the class? I have no materials.
Your boss: Just talk to them.
You: For 45 minutes? They only know 2 words in English.
Your boss: Oh. Well, then you can teach them many new words. Bye-bye.
Your contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. And their word, well.........ever heard that joke about lawyers? |
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JackSarang
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Numerous reports over the years, seeing YBM/EEC blacklisted over and over? Doing a simple search on this board.
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| Don't accept less than 2.0 million a month, that is standard pay. |
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| Only it's not. Especially in a job that offers less than 120 hours a month of teaching time. |
Only its not. Do you frequently ignore evidence in an attempt to make your point? The difference is 300 minutes, the math has been posted, or do numbers make your head hurt? Is 4 1/2 hrs a week less actual work worth a 300k pay cut?
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| Seriously... 2.0 million, single housing, no splits, no weekends, no kindy is very easy to find... and no kindy usually means you don't start teaching till 2pm or later. |
| Quote: |
| Teaching adults is very different than teaching students. It's a far easier job. As such, people are willing to work for less and accept things like split shifts in exchange for not having to spend time controlling the class. |
Except, again in your ignorance, you fail to notice that the original poster is teaching kids. Teaching adults is easier, sure it is, instead of controlling a class you have a room full of people telling you how to teach, complaining that they don't learn fast enough, complain when you correct them etc. Oh, but I'm forgetting, Gord is such an incredible Savant that no-one ever complains about his teaching skills.
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| You're selling yourself way too short. |
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| You're passing judgements on scenarios you don't understand. |
No sir, I believe that would be you. So you enjoy being a shill for YBM, good for you Gord. Please enjoy this golf clap. *clap* *clap* |
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Voyeur
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Literal wrote: |
Good luck. You are really, really going to need it.
I suggest that you hope for the best and expect the worse. Also, don't put so much faith in what your prospective employer says. They LIE, flat-out LIE to your face.
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Maybe I am still to naive, maybe I am not. But please notice despite taking some of what my employer says seriously I am still here asking questions and doing research before I have signed anything.
But what I don't understand is your point. If everything is a lie and there is no way for me as a newbie with no contacts to know anything then no matter whetre I go seems a total crapshoot. So I guess the logic would be that if I have no way of knowing anyting even remotely for sure I might as well at least have an official contarct that says I am getting paid a decent amount right? I mean sure everything can go to hell but no point starting off with a guarantee of slave wages to start things off?
If I want to teach in Seoul what kinds of places and what kinds of conditions should I at least aim to get in my contract - granted that even they may be lieing? |
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