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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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 Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: Re: Anti-American (Military) Petition in Subway |
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*deleted*
misunderstood someone's point
Last edited by SPINOZA on Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| riley wrote: |
Nothing against soldiers of any country, but 19 year old guys are the same whether they are in the military or in university. That age group has a lot of energy and can find itself in a lot of trouble, in the military or in college.
It's not the 30 year old army guys who are getting into fights or harrassing the hookers, it's the young guys. Actually this is also true of the foriegn teachers too.
So when bejarano-korea posted about guys in the military, I assumed he meant the ones he knew when he joined up fresh out of high school. That's not the wisest age group anywhere. |
Exactly Riley: cheers for the post!  |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Ah, I see, bejarano, that you're immune to facts and reason. I shall now ignore you forever. If you feel like flaming me for that, feel free. Just remember that I'm not going to communicate with you as it's obviously a complete waste of my time. I prefer to do something constructive instead. |
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bejarano-korea
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Ah, I see, bejarano, that you're immune to facts and reason. I shall now ignore you forever. If you feel like flaming me for that, feel free. Just remember that I'm not going to communicate with you as it's obviously a complete waste of my time. I prefer to do something constructive instead. |
I'm not flaming you.  You stated what you considered fact (and coming from an CPO with 13 years service) which I gave you a counterbalanced view.
Now you know, and I know most GIs in Korea are there for the same reason as most British soldiers are in The Falklands, because their first choice posting didn't come up and now that they are there. They are going to get tanked up with their mates which will lead to drunken shennanigans involving other units and regiments, MPs, civil authority, small businesses (from bars, take away outlets and brothels) and assorted locals who get in their way, mainly young local civillian men.
(or civvies)
The young men in question are not trained to be altar boys. They are on standby for Iraq and between now and then they are going to have a jolly good time, I did - and I'm sure you did when you were their age.
But you can't expect the civillian population of Korea to have the sam view and funnily enough 'were defending your freedoms' argument won't cut it. |
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wo buxihuan hanguoren
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Location: Suyuskis
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| For so many different reasons, they have to go. Would you want Korean soldiers to protect your country who cause social problems occasionally? No, I didn't think so. |
This is it. Westerners are usually unable to put themselves in the position of others. They often can't see the opposite viewpoint, because their countries have not been invaded , occupied etc.
Would anyone here like it if Canada or america was occupied and protected by russians? And these russian troops behaved like total idiots?
maybe imagine if England had been partitioned. A ride on the tube involved some drunk chinese soldiers making sexy gestures to your wife or generally being arrogant.. But because they occupied your country, they come under the sofa agreement.
There can be no normalisation of Korean relations with the rest of the world, until the americans get the he pukk out of here. As it is, they think every foreign tourist, be he finnish or jamaican, is american. They immediately assume a foreigner is an american with the propensity to behave like an arrogant violent drunk. They will assume that of everyone foreign, just to be on the safe side.
get the troops out of here. Once koreans realise there are no americans here, and they are not effectively 'occupied", they will lighten up. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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That's a laugh. I attribute that to Koreans often.
Why didn't we get invaded? Because we made sure to defend ourselves.
Ask france and Poland about being invaded. Along with many more European nations.
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This is it. Westerners are usually unable to put themselves in the position of others. They often can't see the opposite viewpoint, because their countries have not been invaded , occupied etc.
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
| Why didn't we get invaded? Because we made sure to defend ourselves. |
Sure. Which is why you're unable to see what it would feel like for other countries.
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| Ask france and Poland about being invaded. Along with many more European nations. |
I have asked them. French, Poles, Dutch, etc. the general consensus is: it sucks to have foreign troops on your soil.
Which is why Koreans don't like having americans treating the place like their backyard.
As I said, the sooner USFK leave, the better.
It will help koreans to grow up, truly stand on their own feet, and relate to foreigners without a jaundiced view.
For 50 years, virtually every foreigner in this country was an american. is it any wonder they assume everyone not korean is american, and react accordingly? because they've had ill-behaved youths running riot here for decades. How would you feel? try hard to put yourself in their place now.
If the outcome is an immediate invasion by the norks, then so be it. let the cards fall as they may. Its time koreans pursued their own destiny and determination without having someone else to blame. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| Would anyone here like it if Canada or america was occupied and protected by russians? And these russian troops behaved like total idiots? |
You happen to have any proof that it's a large percentage of the US troops here behaving that way or are you going with recreational outrage based on a few incidents?
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| maybe imagine if England had been partitioned. A ride on the tube involved some drunk chinese soldiers making sexy gestures to your wife or generally being arrogant.. |
I ask again for the proof you have or an admission you're just going with recreational outrage.
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| But because they occupied your country, they come under the sofa agreement. |
This is a complete falsehood as a description of the legal status of members of the United States Armed Forces stationed in the Republic of Korea. As mentioned earlier, those members always come under the terms of the SOFA and the UCMJ. The SOFA also provides for a mechanism for such military members to be handed over to, detained by, tried by, and even incarcerated by the government of the Republic of Korea as those military members are also subject to Korean law.
I certainly hope you're not going to try to tell me that they're not subject to Korean law. It's late in the day and I don't think I'll appreciate the humor of such an incorrect assertion at the moment.
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| There can be no normalisation of Korean relations with the rest of the world, until the americans get the he pukk out of here. As it is, they think every foreign tourist, be he finnish or jamaican, is american. They immediately assume a foreigner is an american with the propensity to behave like an arrogant violent drunk. They will assume that of everyone foreign, just to be on the safe side. |
The reason so many Koreans assume every foreigner is American is because the schools are doing an incredibly bad job of educating the poulation about other lands.
Now, why don't you detail how so many Korean men act here toward both Korean and foreign men? Tell us how they act while drunk and how often you see them stumbling down the road. How often do you see them puking their drunken guts out? How often do you see them urinating in public because they're too drunk to wait to get to a real toilet? How often does some Korean man verbally attack--or sometimes, even physically attack--a foreigner for talking quietly in a language other than Korea or, "worse yet" having the temerity to be talking to a Korean woman?
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| get the troops out of here. Once koreans realise there are no americans here, and they are not effectively 'occupied", they will lighten up. |
Once the US troops depart this land, it will have a new government. And that government isn't the one you seem to think it will be. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| Why didn't we get invaded? Because we made sure to defend ourselves. |
Sure. Which is why you're unable to see what it would feel like for other countries. |
Many Americans have been taught how bad it was to be occupied by a foreign government. They even, to this day, stand tall and are proud of defeating that government. Sometimes national memory stretches back a bit far.
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| Ask france and Poland about being invaded. Along with many more European nations. |
I have asked them. French, Poles, Dutch, etc. the general consensus is: it sucks to have foreign troops on your soil. |
May we see the survey questions and methodology so we can evaluate the validity of your so-called "general consensus?" There's a wide difference between what a few of your friends say at the bar or cafe table and what the actual general feeling is.
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| Which is why Koreans don't like having americans treating the place like their backyard. |
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the word some. Not all Americans, and certainly not a large percentage of US military here "treat [Korea] like their backyard."
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| As I said, the sooner USFK leave, the better. |
Odd thing, though, is that when President Carter was determined to get the American troops out of Korea, the Korean president practically had a melt-down. The Korean government knows its incapable of defending the country by itself. And the Korean military today is working very well with the American military. The American military does quite a lot of good for this country and a lot of it is volunteer work not directed by any military command.
And I repeat: if the US Forces depart now, there will be another government here toot sweet. I doubt you'll be welcoming it, either.
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| It will help koreans to grow up, truly stand on their own feet, and relate to foreigners without a jaundiced view. |
That would be nice, but there's a huge problem with that idea. It's called North Korea.
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| For 50 years, virtually every foreigner in this country was an american. is it any wonder they assume everyone not korean is american, and react accordingly? |
For almost that long, Japanese were colonizing the place. I've yet to find a Korean who automatically assumes a foreign Asian person here is Japanese. It is a wonder that so many people here assume a non-Asian foreigner is American and a Black foreigner is African. The population, at least in Seoul and Busan, has been exposed over the years to people from all over the world. It's not America's fault that the education system here is essentially a joke.
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| because they've had ill-behaved youths running riot here for decades. |
Actually, I'm tired of hearing this line of malarkey. Kindly prove it is true or quit saying it.
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How would you feel? try hard to put yourself in their place now.
If the outcome is an immediate invasion by the norks, then so be it. let the cards fall as they may. Its time koreans pursued their own destiny and determination without having someone else to blame. |
Or perhaps the Unites States of America should continue to honor its treaty commitments just like any other "grown up" country. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Central Cali- why is the US in a country where the majority of the population hate them being here and don't want them to be here?
Why are you defending a people that don't want your "generosity"??
Yes..this is Seoul! Most koreans hate the fact that US forces are here.So why stay? If USFK stay its obvious that it is because theres something in it for the US. Its hardly the amazing act of generosity its made out to be. Do you give a gift to someone who doesn't want it? You give a generous gift to someone who badmouths you when your back is turned?
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because they've had ill-behaved youths running riot here for decades.
Actually, I'm tired of hearing this line of malarkey. Kindly prove it is true or quit saying it. |
The most publicised are just the tank incident and the itaewon rape. But plenty people have complained about the behaviour of GI's. Anyhow the random behaviour of Korean men or GI's is not the point: its that the US is occupying another sovereign state.
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| Once the US troops depart this land, it will have a new government. And that government isn't the one you seem to think it will be. |
The old chestnut you are parrotting " Kim Jong Il would invade" is BS- the DPRK army doesn't stand a chance against the ROK forces. Let Koreans rely on their own security. They don't want the US here.The troops are needed in iraq anyhow. |
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lsrupert
Joined: 27 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I am trying to look at this from both points of view. I have quite a few friends who are serving in the US military here, and know that they too get frustrated with those who behave stupidly. Not only does it give Koreans a bad impression of Americans, but it also causes the military to crack the whip, and basically "ground" whole groups at a time, whether or not they were the ones being idiots. No drinking, no going off base, etc. No matter your age, you are treated like a 12 year old.
As for the "fact" that all Koreans hate having the Americans here, I find that hard to believe. I have spoken with many Koreans about just this subject, and have heard otherwise. Yes, some did say that they would like for the American military to leave, but the majority wanted them to stay. Other Koreans that I have spoken with said that when they were in college, they were paid to protest things. It was an easy way to make money. So, posting pictures of protesters doesn't really mean anything. How many of them truly are protesting, and how many of them are just there for the money?
I guess I just hate when people jump on the bandwagon, and make comments on how terrible Americans are, whether they are in the military or not. It's easy for us to find faults with people, but is it the best thing to do? I personally get frustrated when I see any foreigner (having been here 3 years, I don't automatically assume that they are Americans...) behaving in a way that makes us look bad. Most foreigners in this country are here for good purposes, not bad. |
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koon_taung_daeng
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Location: south korea
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| I really do wish American troops would leave korea.These people don't deserve Americas help.I think America should keep out of everyones business the way they keep out of africas |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| Central Cali- why is the US in a country where the majority of the population hate them being here and don't want them to be here? |
Prove the majority of the population and their government don't want the US here.
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| Why are you defending a people that don't want your "generosity"?? |
The government of the country entered into a treaty with the government of the United States. That treaty requires the US to provide troops permanently stationed in the ROK.
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| Yes..this is Seoul! Most koreans hate the fact that US forces are here. |
Prove it.
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| So why stay? If USFK stay its obvious that it is because theres something in it for the US. |
The "something" is an ally in this part of the world.
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| Its hardly the amazing act of generosity its made out to be. |
Prove it.
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| Do you give a gift to someone who doesn't want it? |
Nope; however, you have yet to prove that those rioters are the actual representatives of the people of the ROK.
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| You give a generous gift to someone who badmouths you when your back is turned? |
Nope; however, you have yet to prove that those rioters are the actual representative sof the people of the ROK.
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| The most publicised are just the tank incident and the itaewon rape. But plenty people have complained about the behaviour of GI's. |
Care to prove (a) that the few incidents are actually representative of the vast majority of the US military personnel here and (b) that the plenty of people who complain are the actual representatives of the people of the ROK?
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| Anyhow the random behaviour of Korean men or GI's is not the point: its that the US is occupying another sovereign state. |
The United State is not occupying South Korea.
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| Once the US troops depart this land, it will have a new government. And that government isn't the one you seem to think it will be. |
The old chestnut you are parrotting " Kim Jong Il would invade" is BS- the DPRK army doesn't stand a chance against the ROK forces. Let Koreans rely on their own security. They don't want the US here.The troops are needed in iraq anyhow.[/quote]
Dream on, dream on.
Oh, and in the future, keep your language clean when you address me. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm American and I wish I would've been there to sign the petition. I don't want American troops stationed in Korea, but my signature won't mean jack until Korean men grow a pair. If they honestly want American troops out of Korea, all they have to do is say so and it would be a reality.
And I don't know what's up with people thinking Koreans think every foreigner is American. Most Koreans think I'm from the Middle East or the USA, but I've had several hookers ask me if I'm Russian and many students say I'm from Africa. |
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