Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

"Many Koreans are angry."
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

highstreet

Joined: 13 Nov 2010

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:44 am Post subject:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

joelove wrote:

I sort of agree but kids often don't care and teenagers are often burnt out.

Can we please stop with the defence that Korean kids are so burnt out? When I was in high school I worked 30+ hours a week and had had tons of household chores (mommy and daddy didn`t just not cook and clean for me, I had to do it for them). And the same was true with many of my friends. This wasn`t ever an excuse for me sleeping in class, not doing my homework or not learning the material. Yeah, it sucks that kids here have to sit in a classroom most of their days, but they never face the risk of actually failing and have little to no responsibilities otherwise, so I don`t get this idea that they`re so overworked.

There are many factors in the average Korean`s lack of English acquisition, some understandable others not so much. But I`m very tired of this excuse that they`re so overworked that they have no responsibility or accountability. That attitude is so prevalent in this society. So busy, so busy! Yeah, yeah. For people so busy they seem to get very little done. I`m not saying people in my home country are more or less motivated, successful or smart. But there is accountability. No one cared that I worked till 2am last night or had to get my parents together that morning, I failed a test, I failed. My friend wasn`t fluent in Spanish after 8 years, it was his fault. He didn`t get a B+ for trying really hard (or at least looking like he did).

It`s one thing for Koreans to constantly make excuses for their students, it`s ingrained in their society. But when foreigners here buy into it, it really annoys me. Play the game, don`t mistake the game for real life.

Where are you from where a high school student is allowed to work over 30 hours a week and until 2AM?

Anyways, if you think a Korean kid can't get burnt out because you didn't when you were young, that doesn't even begin to form an argument.

liveinkorea316

Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:12 pm Post subject:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

joelove wrote:

I sort of agree but kids often don't care and teenagers are often burnt out.

I don't agree Blackout. Korean public school and uni is hyper competitive.

Newbie

Joined: 07 Feb 2003

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:01 pm Post subject:

I may be wrong on these exact numbers, but I swear that over the years, this is what I've seen: Around 2003 Korea ranked about 70th in TOEFL scores. About a year ago, they were top 10. That's a pretty drastic improvement, no? I think Koreans (or anyone for that matter involved in picking up a second language) who get upset about a perceived lack of advancement in language acquisition are often comparing it to picking up Math, Science, History etc. and failing to realize that learning a second language is nothing like learning other school subjects.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:39 pm Post subject:

NQ wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

My own co-teacher sabotages my efforts to teach the class by insulting me in Korean to the kids. Like how am I supposed to maintain control with stuff like that going on?

Are you certain you never roll your eyes at her, openly contradict her, or otherwise disrespect her.

My co-teacher is honestly just a lazy peace of crap. She expects me to do all the work (ppt, activities, stupid posters to show everyone we're doing something etc.) and then she'll criticize me if something isn't to her liking. She doesn't offer much help in what I should do, she's never too clear in her expectations. If I ask too many questions she gets upset, almost starts crying at times. She doesn't have my back and she won't help me with any of the material (like actually making it)

Dude trust me, she thwarts my efforts and the students see it. Yes, when I'm teaching, she'll just interrupt me and tell me to move on to the next thing, or she wont even take up the answers and I do visibly look disgruntled. I pass out worksheets, spend my time making them and I do expect the students to call out the answers but they don't, except for a few students. So yeah I do get a disgruntled look on my face, cuz it's annoying. She'll just give them the answers OR she won't at all. I still try though...I don't wanna spoon feed these guys. All they do is copy off the smarter ones or off the boards. They just wait for the answer when they have to learn to work for it a bit. Like, in the middle of the lesson she'll pull me in the back and say what's wrong. It's not like she's really clear to begin with so it makes me upset, cuz she just pressures me when she's doing jack herself.

I'll give you another example of pure disrespect. With my winter camp, I had a whole reward system in place and at the end of the camp she wanted me to rank the students. She apparently had gift cards for em. What does she do? After I give her my list of students who I ranked from the highest to lowest based on the amount of stickers I had given them, she just chooses herself who's number 1, 2, 3 etc., WITHOUT even consulting me. She said she based it on other things besides participation, like their ending presentation skills, atttiude etc. when she was never in the class to observe said things. She doesn't even ask me, and just does it herself. Like I had thought of the reward system on my own and was never told I had to rank the students at the end, so I stayed on top of what she wanted before she even told me. She's so unhelpful in getting the materials for my winter camp ('oh we have unlimited budget' then the next day when I start asking for materials "oh it's too expensive...") that I had to spend close to 40,000 won of my own cash getting materials and all the stickers. I don't think she even realized that or even cared.

The students do not like her and some of them have gone up to the VP to complain about her. They like me much more. I hear this from multiple grades.

Honestly *beep* this school...i'm leaving in March and I'm gonna sabotage her disciplinary efforts before I get out of here and I will openly disrespect her in front of the new 1st graders.

That sucks. She sounds like one of the bad ones. Perhaps a dramatic exit is in store?

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:01 pm Post subject:

highstreet wrote:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

joelove wrote:

I sort of agree but kids often don't care and teenagers are often burnt out.

Uh, the real world? I don't know what you mean 'allowed'. I wasn't the only student there and like I said, many of my friends had the same. Not sure where you grew up, but apparently it sounds nice.

Anyway, I didn't say just because I was burnt out Korean students can't be. First, I didn't say I was burnt out. It was just 'life'. I didn't sit around and feel sorry for myself and complain which is the national pastime here in Korea. Second, I said even if Korean students are burnt out (which I guess is possible after 12 hours of sitting around playing handphone games...I mean 'studying'), that doesn't give them an excuse not to do work or get passing grades on their own. Life is tough, get used to it.

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:10 pm Post subject:

liveinkorea316 wrote:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

joelove wrote:

I sort of agree but kids often don't care and teenagers are often burnt out.

I don't agree Blackout. Korean public school and uni is hyper competitive.

Yeah, fine, it's competitive (although the uni part is laughable. Nothing is competitive that gives you a minimum of a B just for showing up). And most Korean kids have 0 worries outside that classroom. Again, I'm not trying to say my or anyone else's life is tougher than a Korean's (although I could easily make that argument elsewhere). I'm saying that it's not an excuse for everything in life, which is how it's treated in Korea and by many brainwashed foreigners. Maybe you guys just had incredibly easy lives, but that's not the case for the majority of kids back home. Feel sorry for the kids in the ghettos who have real world problems to deal with instead of trying so hard to look busy when actually doing nothing.

joelove

Joined: 12 May 2011

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject:

Newbie wrote:

I may be wrong on these exact numbers, but I swear that over the years, this is what I've seen:

Around 2003 Korea ranked about 70th in TOEFL scores.

About a year ago, they were top 10.

That's a pretty drastic improvement, no?

I think Koreans (or anyone for that matter involved in picking up a second language) who get upset about a perceived lack of advancement in language acquisition are often comparing it to picking up Math, Science, History etc. and failing to realize that learning a second language is nothing like learning other school subjects.

One analogy I heard of is that learning another language is like adding a bit to a pile every day. I think it was coins. If you have none, or one or two, adding another feels good. Then when you have many, you barely notice one more. It was often higher level students capable of pretty good conversation in English who complained they weren't making progress. I mentioned this analogy, and it seemed to help put it in perspective. Sort of makes sense anyway. If I had only a few bucks, another few would be nice. If I had a thousand or more, a few more is almost nothing.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Yes I like it and it'd especially appeal to Koreans

ironjohn

Joined: 25 Nov 2009

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:27 pm Post subject:

PigeonFart wrote:

Korean students of English rarely practice speaking English with each other. They should practice as much as possible given they live in such a homogenous society with few opportunities to interact with non-koreans.

I've never even seen Korean teachers of English speak English with each other! Pathetic. You'd think they'd avail of as many opportunities as possible. But there's such deep shame about speaking a foreign tongue in Korean culture. They find it even more unthinkable to speak English with a Korean (even when they know he/she speaks English). It's like they'll be percieved as weird or less Korean. Their hermit kingdom mindset/history is too blame.

Koreans should use English with each other as much as possible, they need to PRACTICE! Even in language exchange events where Koreans gather to speak English, they only speak Korean with each other.

Yes i do accept Korean and English as being very different languages. But my point about their reluctance to practice is the over-riding problem.

I agree with this post 100%. We've all been asked a million times, "how can I improve my English?" Whenever I suggest doing this (speaking English with other Koreans), it seems absolutely mind-boggling to most people, which is quite frustrating to me.

English is way too much of a status symbol here and not a means to communicate. Being good at English means you've studied harder, gone to a better school, your parents are more well-off/smarter/higher social class, etc... This attitude needs to change in order for Koreans to feel they can speak English well.

For example, I've never met a group of Koreans who speak English to each other for practice, but I have met plenty of study-abroad types who will bend over backwards to speak English to me in the company of their non-study-abroad friends, just to impress them.

That being said, I also agree that most Koreans understand and speak English way better than they think they do.

highstreet

Joined: 13 Nov 2010

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

highstreet wrote:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

joelove wrote:

I sort of agree but kids often don't care and teenagers are often burnt out.

The US. When I was working during high school, students were legally allowed to work 18 maybe 20 hours a week. And couldn't work past 10 on weekdays. Obv this probably differs state to state, but I would assume most states are close to these numbers. So yeah, that's why I asked.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject:

ironjohn wrote:

PigeonFart wrote:

Sorry I don't agree with this method. I think they would be better off in their room practicing reading, writing, and listening skills alone. I suggest only practicing conversation with a native speaker. This can be done online too, it doesn't have to in be person if they are too "scared" or whatever. There are way too many bad habits that have resulted from Koreans not consulting Native speakers on a regular basis that have become engrained in the way Koreans speak English. At this point a lot of Konglish is impossible for even the most determined NET to shake. It's almost like a part of the national identity to misuse English now. I see that as a major obstacle to Koreans that are learning English these days. There is bad english everywhere I look. Everytime a kid buys a sweatshirt here it's like they are getting a lesson in how NOT to write english. Then there is a stubborn refusal to listen to a native speaker when they explain that something is erroneous. Explain to me how a major corporation can't simply ask a person from a western country the simple question "does this sound awkward in English?". No, it's much better to have a flawed slogan that will be shown everywhere in Seoul I guess.

I have found that the Koreans that struggle with learning english are a lot like the foreigners here that struggle with learning Korean. They expect some automatic learning process to occur where they spend a bunch of hours in a classroom or hanging out with Korean people, but that isn't how it works. Learning a language has a lot of factors, time is a major one. It's going to take time. You can't fake it either. There is no bribe you can pay that will allow you to sit at a table and converse in English. You can flirt with your hakwon instructor and get a certificate, but that won't give you the ability to give directions to the lost foreigner. You can sit in the library for hours playing cellphone games to make it look like you have been studying, but if you weren't studying, you won't be able to visit the USA or the UK and have conversations with the everyday folks. People look for shortcuts with language but there aren't any, and when they figure that out it tends to make them angry. Korea happens to take education very seriously so of course it's going to make people more angry here. I personally love it because it is the equalizing factor. I love meeting a Korean person that busted their tail learning english, but didn't go to a top university or come from an affluent family. I like watching them put the people that advanced through family name or manipulation to shame. English is like the BS detector for job interviews. I'm not sure if it's as useful as people say, but it is a way for a place of employment to immediately determine how much a student has learned through their studies.

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:05 am Post subject:

highstreet wrote:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

highstreet wrote:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

joelove wrote:

I sort of agree but kids often don't care and teenagers are often burnt out.

I didn't mean to sound curt or sarcastic in my response, if that's how I sounded.

I've heard of these types of rules, but I've never seen them enforced where I was from. Many of the people I worked with were also high schoolers and many of my friends were the same. I don't know if these rules really apply to people over 16. It's sort of like those rules that minors shouldn't be on the streets past midnight or whatever. But who's really going to do anything about it? Or, in the context of Korea: minors aren't allowed in PC bangs past 10pm. Yeah right, I got one right next door and the kids stream in and out at all hours. And then foreigners see them on the bus home and shake their heads at how they've been forced to study in hogwans all night. So many of us have drank the kool aid. If you work with Koreans I'm sure you hear about how 'busy' they are all the time. But I'm also sure you see what they do all day. Now apply that to what you've been told about students here, and add in the fact that things like open classes are considered real insights into regular classrooms.

I know there are lots of Koreans who work hard, including students. But I would very confidently say that the ratio of hard workers to slackers is at most the same as it is in our home countries, especially when you take into consideration all of life's other responsibilities. My co-teacher's 19 year old son calls his mom at work to order him food because he's lazy to heat up the stuff she made him for lunch. Back home he would be considered mentally handicapped or at best a joke. Here, that's expected. How stressed can life be when you're that babied for most of it.

Again, just want to state that I wouldn't have traded my adolescence for the average Korean kid's. But that has less to do with the amount of work and stress than it does with actually being able to enjoy life after I was done that work instead of pretending to keep doing nothing in some culture wide peeing contest.

NQ

Joined: 16 Feb 2012

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:49 am Post subject:

hiamnotcool wrote:

ironjohn wrote:

PigeonFart wrote:

I guess it could work ways...yes practicing English with other Koreans could reinforce Konglish but at the same it could make them stop being shy and so scared to use it. I have students at my school who know English well but are too scared to open their mouths for fear of reprisal from other students. There's this one student, this grade 1 student, who doesn't seem to care and talks freely to me wherever, but it's at the cost of him being an outcast.

Sorry to say, but it's this culture that's holding people back from learning English. The worst is how these Korean corporations use Konglish everywhere on food packaging, advertisements, and menus just to name a few places. Considering how importent English here is, they could spend time to proof-read their material. Only the big companies like Samsung have proper English on their stuff but the smaller ones don't.

It is getting better but their progress could be so much more without all these things.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:54 pm Post subject:

blackinque wrote:

You can't blame education. That's not what made people in places like India or Hong Kong good at English.

I mean, what can you expect, in a country where 99% of the time I hear korean music on the street, where there are an overwhelming number of korean shows on TV, only Korean books/magazines, closed korean internet etc.

Hong Kong and India were both parts of the British Empire. They had to operate very much in English and still do. That was never really the case in South Korea. That said, only 11% of Indians or so can speak English well. That's maybe 150 million people. People assume that most Indians speak English. It's only certain people with the means or who studied the language like crazy to make it. English is an official language in India and has been since the time of the British Empire until today.

Personally, I can understand that you cannot expect to be fluent in English simply by studying it after 10 years. They say you need 10,000 hours of studying to become relatively fluent. I studied French for many hours; I'm very good at French. However, I did not simply rely on my teachers. I listen to hundreds of hours of audio, so many songs, read various grammar and vocabulary books, practiced it enough when I spent some years in Montreal, though I was sometimes shy to use it.

As someone mentioned, plenty of Canadians study French while they can't speak it. However, it's because many Anglo-Canadians don't care if French is Canada's second language. Koreans need English in many cases more than many Anglo-Canadians need French, but they don't get very interested until many are desperate to be good English majors or find a job and then blame their English teachers. However, if they had more teachers who made them speak in English, they'd speak a lot better in English. I met Chinese people who never had native teachers who can speak better than most Koreans. Their teachers made them use English in the classroom and used dialogues. They didn't simply have them study English grammar in Chinese.

nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: "Many Koreans are angry."

World Traveler wrote:

"Many Koreans are angry."

They were also angry when I got here ten years ago.

Its a state of mind. Koreans believe the world is out to get them.

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Page 3 of 5

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe