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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| In fact at the time the mid east was a lot more human and civilized than Europe was for a very long time. |
People keep saying that like it means something _now_.
It does not. |
Oh contraire. History repeats itself.
It means that we have to struggle to remain civilized. Calling another group of humans uncivilized: 1) is an easy way to bail out of a problem 2) makes ourselves less civilized.
Unfortunately humans have not evolved enough where civility comes out on top. Joo gave two examples where this is the case.
And to tie it in to what you said, by not pointing it out, it makes it easier for people to bash Muslims and Islam. There is a general perception in the West that the Muslim world has been backwards for its entire exsistance, and therefore, why the bloody hell should it catch up with the world now when it never was in the first place?? So hey, why not just kill all the uncivilized bastards? (oh the irony)
So that's how it is relevant. Not a direct relation, but nevertheless it does hold some importance. And no, it doesn't do anything to fight fundamentalism unfortunately. I guess my only hope is that when fewer people buy into that theory (muslims are just a bunch of uncivilized a-holes), then they'll take fewer actions to help propogate the fundies, and therefore there will be fewer of the religous nuts.
I could ramble on but I hate long posts so I'll stop there.
but to quote wackers: new page.  |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: |
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To quote the famous philosopher Janet Jackson, "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"
In other words, thank you for popularizing the concept of zero 1500 years ago. Now it's time to return to civilized behavior. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I too have been troubled every single time I hear someone use the word "civilized" when referring to the imperial occupier or "the West" in general though I generally feel like it's useless to complain to the person who is abusing the word. The simian-in-chief is fond of saying it and so is his puppet master Cheney even as they have their minions torture people.
It is only because of moral blindness and intense self-deception that anyone can call what we have done to the Iraqis civilized. And I don't mean just the torture. I mean every death of a non-combatant in that bedeviled land. It is the height of arrogance to use that term "civilized" in relation to us. Please do me a big favor and don't use it again in this context.
And don't minimize the value of zero either. Though it would take a much more scientifically educated person than myself to confirm it, I don't think we would be flying around in space if we were relying on Roman numerals and didn't have zero. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: |
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Well what the US did in Iraq was morally right because the alternative was the rule of Saddam Hussein and his psycho sons.
As I said anyone who says they oppose the war on humanitarian grounds is either being disingenuous or ignorant.
Cause no government could be worse than the rule of Saddam Hussein especially if he got free. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Well what the US did in Iraq was morally right because the alternative was the rule of Saddam Hussein and his psycho sons.
As I said anyone who says they oppose the war on humanitarian grounds is either being disingenuous or ignorant.
Cause no government could be worse than the rule of Saddam Hussein especially if he got free. |
You're not really looking at the results of what we have wrought on Iraq, Joo. You're seeing what you would like to believe there rather than what is. It must help you sleep soundly at night. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:53 am Post subject: |
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Whatever they are they are better than letting Saddam go free.
We know the result of the rule of Saddam 300,000 dead - would have been more were it not for the first gulf war. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| WHAT HAVE I DONE TO HELP TERRORISTS? NAME ONE THING. |
How about concealing your support for terrorists under a faux concern for the civil rights of muslims. How come we never see posts from Buncheon Bum about the civil rights of non muslims violated by muslims in muslim dominated countries? Your contemptous double standard is clear for all to see.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Fine, we're all screwed Shakuhchi. Muslim and Christian societies can't work together. If that's true, then we might as well destroy all of Europe to save itself before it's too late. |
Here you are trying to frame it as a christian vs muslims style problem. The fact is that although there are many christians in Europe, all the countries in the EU are secular countries that do not make laws that oppress muslims (unlike the way muslim countries treat non muslims - when are we going to see a post about that, Buncheon Bum?). Muslims have trouble getting along with everyone, including non religious Europeans, and if there is a problem between Europeans and muslims, then it is the the fault of the muslims for being so hostile to their hosts. Furthermore, why should Europe have to be destroyed just because alien, culturally incompatible, hostile muslims are creating problems? It would be better to simply stop the flow of immigration into Europe and stop the problem from spreading.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| You know what's uncivilized? The fact that I would be putting myself in danger by walking across the street and deciding to take a stroll around Lake Merrit. The fact that I'd be at a high risk of being robbed or being a victim of violent crime if I decided to walk a few blocks in the wrong direction from my home. The fact that 100 murders in my city (population nearly 400,00) is considered "normal." You know where that is NOT NORMAL? Many muslim countries in the world. Now who is civilized?? |
Lovely to hear they are so law abiding in their countries. Its a pity they are not in my country. Maybe it is because they hold the people of the countries they emigrated to in contempt.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| You know what else is uncivilized? The fact that if it weren't for my mom's insistance I pay for health insurance, I'd be either a) near dead right now b) 1/4 milliion dollars in debt so I could save my life. And where do I live? the most advanced, richest country in the world. |
So what? If you want me to listen to your personal problems, make an appointment like everyone else. Cash or Credit?
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Before you accuse 1 billion people of being uncivilized and being unfit to get along with us in the West, look in the goddamn mirror. |
I didnt accuse 1 billion people of being uncivilized. I said, 'it is your terrorist enabling attitude that is disgraceful and out of step with the morality of civilized people'.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Out of step? You better hope my ass is in step or else this world is on its way to a clash that would make the crusades look like a great cultural convention. |
ter��ror��ism
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
Here Buncheon Bum does his part in instilling fear (terror) by alluding to the massacres of innocent Europeans that resulted in the crusades. Terrorists do the killing and enablers like Buncheon Bum talk them up and 'explain' them.
Like I said in my initial post, what motivates you is completely beyond me. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| My name is Leslie Cheswyck and I support that message. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 2:52 am Post subject: |
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From Bucheon Bum's blog way back when (over a year back):
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| These three religous nuts talked to me in the internet cafe today. Two were Saudi, one was Yemeni. The Yemeni was definitly a bit crazed, while the other two acted fairly normal. The Yemeni dude spoke English, the other two didn't. Yemeni went on about all kinds of crap including jihad, Israelis being responsible for 9/11, and all that nonsense. One Saudi offered me a free trip to Riyadh. If they don't have some connection to a terrorist group or two, I'd be amazed. |
Really, where you get your ideas about B.B. is completely beyond me. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:09 am Post subject: |
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Mama mia, bucheon bum. You are really taking a lot of abuse lately from some of the bigoted trash that likes to infest this board. I just want to express my sympathy for your frustrations in trying to deal with your health problems, employment problems, and trying to present a somewhat sane perspective on the Muslim/Arabic world that is much maligned by the worst scum that can slime its way onto this board. They themselves do so thoroughly portray the vicious, violent bigotry that they claim to see elsewhere.
You do seem to be in an unenviable position of getting it from both sides. I certainly haven't forgotten the things that you said in support of the rape of Fallujah, but then I don't need to bring them up to re-hash and condemn either. It's only when I hear something that I think is wrong and abominable that I feel it is a duty to speak against it because I do believe that silence implies consent (or cowardliness).
In spite of those deep differences between us, I do have great respect for your courage and willingness to speak out about what you know of Arab and Muslim culture. And your willingness to put yourself on the hot spot for your values. You do a great service to us all with your willingness to share your experiences and understanding of a culture that most of us have such limited understanding of.
In other times and places, your courage would have resulted in your being called a n*gger-lover or an Indian-lover or a Jap-lover.
Thank you for your courage and wisdom. (Obviously, I don't think the views that you expressed about Fallujah fall into a category of wisdom.)
When you're being abused by some of these sad, vicious, and hate-filled creatures, just remember that's why it's so important that the inmates don't get to run the asylum.
Cheers. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:11 am Post subject: |
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Christ. What a rant!
| shakuhachi wrote: |
How about concealing your support for terrorists under a faux concern for the civil rights of muslims.
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Please give an example of where bucheon bum shows support for terrorists.
Or, is merely having concern for the civil rights of muslims in itself an expression of support for terrorists? So if I were say something along the lines of, "it was wrong (and stupid) to sexually abuse and torture Iraqi prisoners, many of whom were innocent and wrongly imprisoned" I would be a supporter of terrorisim. I see. Impressive logic mate.
| shakuhachi wrote: |
Terrorists do the killing and enablers like Buncheon Bum talk them up and 'explain' them.
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Please explain again how BB is enabling the terrorists, because your argument is completely lost on a silly little bird like me. |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Shak, you need to lay off. Yeah, I too tend to think that he has a tendency to whitewash Islam, but he is not some namby pamby Edward Said wannabe.
Of course, I believe in killing every living thing in muslim nations, razing their cities, and salting the earth, so anyone is going to look a tad bit apologist to me.
Islam Delende Est |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Unfortunately, most people who confuse explaining terrorism with advocating terrorism are rightwingers, like it or not. |
I wonder if they honestly confuse it, or they purposely try to mislead people by conflating the two. I'm not sure which would be worse.
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You're quite right to wonder. I'd say it plays into the hands of the 'powers that be' for us confuse the two.
| dogbert wrote: |
Thanks be to Mozilla, I did not see your photo, but I'm sure it's a beaut. |
I'm still puzzling over quite what you mean by this. It has flown over my head rather. I'm assuming it's an insult of some sort? Perhaps you are trying to say I'm ugly? If so, that's a very childish insult, and, happily, quite wrong. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| WHAT HAVE I DONE TO HELP TERRORISTS? NAME ONE THING. |
How about concealing your support for terrorists under a faux concern for the civil rights of muslims. How come we never see posts from Buncheon Bum about the civil rights of non muslims violated by muslims in muslim dominated countries? Your contemptous double standard is clear for all to see.
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Wow, I didn't realize I had made any comments on this thead about muslims or civil rights, for or against either one. Please point out where I did. I'm curious.
Why don't I comment on the rights of non-muslims in muslim countries? Sorry to burst your bubble but I have. May I direct you towards my blog? I have a couple entries about it, albeit some time ago. Don't write about the M.East much these days there, so you would have to go back quite a bit.
I know I've bitched about Muslim countries numerous times. In fact I complained about the Tunisian president the other day- Big_Bird can attest to that one.
| Quote: |
| Here you are trying to frame it as a christian vs muslims style problem. The fact is that although there are many christians in Europe, all the countries in the EU are secular countries that do not make laws that oppress muslims (unlike the way muslim countries treat non muslims - when are we going to see a post about that, Buncheon Bum?). Muslims have trouble getting along with everyone, including non religious Europeans, and if there is a problem between Europeans and muslims, then it is the the fault of the muslims for being so hostile to their hosts. Furthermore, why should Europe have to be destroyed just because alien, culturally incompatible, hostile muslims are creating problems? It would be better to simply stop the flow of immigration into Europe and stop the problem from spreading. |
I AM the one to frame it? No, you did. You were the one to make the original remark, along the lines of "We can't live together." I was just countering the argument. I have not said anything for or against EU immigration policies. That is for each country to decide on her own. If France wants to prevent any more North africans from entering, I'm not going to argue against it (or for it either).
| Quote: |
| Here Buncheon Bum does his part in instilling fear (terror) by alluding to the massacres of innocent Europeans that resulted in the crusades. Terrorists do the killing and enablers like Buncheon Bum talk them up and 'explain' them. |
Ah yes, it was the Arabs' fault the crusades occured.  Talk about apologist. My goodness..
Instilling fear? what the bloody hell are you talking about? If that's all you got from my remark, then I feel sorry for you. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
From Bucheon Bum's blog way back when (over a year back):
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| These three religous nuts talked to me in the internet cafe today. Two were Saudi, one was Yemeni. The Yemeni was definitly a bit crazed, while the other two acted fairly normal. The Yemeni dude spoke English, the other two didn't. Yemeni went on about all kinds of crap including jihad, Israelis being responsible for 9/11, and all that nonsense. One Saudi offered me a free trip to Riyadh. If they don't have some connection to a terrorist group or two, I'd be amazed. |
Really, where you get your ideas about B.B. is completely beyond me. |
So, mith, what kind of research techniques did you use to come up with this quote from way back when. Did it take you a lot of time to find? Just asking in case you're using some particularly efficient search technique that I've missed.
Cheers. |
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