|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
chomsky
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
|
 Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Damned straight.... |
 |
|
| Mosley wrote: |
Quotation: "Contrary to popular myth, the U.S. did not liberate Korea from the Japanese."
He's right, you know. It was Kim Il-sung who did- and singlehandedly, at that. |
"liberate" in this case starts to take on a whole new meaning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Austin
Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 11:39 pm Post subject: More than one side to the story... |
|
|
Amazing how some many on this site criticize Koreans for being ignorant, yet those same people believe the propaganda that was spoon feed to them by their own countries.
I am a U.S. citizen, but that does not preclude me from being able to see the truth.
If you want to know about the role of the USMG, the orgins of the Chaebols, the financing of Korea, the five-year economic plans, the puppet-dictators, etc. the information can be obtained. The only thing that is stopping you is yourself!
Neocolonialism does not require the "label" of the occupying force. It is much more subtle then the colonialism of old. Take a look at who has been gradually taking control of the banks in Korea. Look at the brands, chains, and corporations that are extending their reach throughout Korea.
Free market? Capitalism? Not a chance!
Do you know the story behind Daewoo?
Turn the light on before you respond and understand that the U.S. does not do things for altruistic reasons. The U.S. needs new, emerging markets, as it is the nature of our economic system. If we can not expand, or economy will stall. Korea was a part of that scenario.
Again, how can you claim we liberated Korea? We divided Korea for our own interests! Have not any of you heard of North and South Korea? Our interest was not based on what was best for the Korean people. One look at some of the actions that were taken by the USMG can dispel that myth in a second.
Enjoy your weekend! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Actually, Austin, what you said WAS funny, and I'm still laughing. Here it is again : "they did not liberate Korea, but merely replaced the Japanese with the U.S. neocolonial system."
Korea is not a colony of the US. It makes me giggle that anyone could seriously suggest it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chomsky
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:03 am Post subject: Re: More than one side to the story... |
|
|
| Austin wrote: |
| Amazing how some many on this site criticize Koreans for being ignorant, yet those same people believe the propaganda that was spoon feed to them by their own countries. |
yeah that's me! why i'm right up Dubya's tight little ass.
| Austin wrote: |
| If you want to know about the role of the USMG, the orgins of the Chaebols, the financing of Korea, the five-year economic plans, the puppet-dictators, etc. the information can be obtained. The only thing that is stopping you is yourself! |
alrighty then. i'm ruuing out to the nearest bookstore to get as wide a range of objective opions as possible. shit. i forgot where I am. my mistake.
| Austin wrote: |
| Neocolonialism does not require the "label" of the occupying force. It is much more subtle then the colonialism of old. Take a look at who has been gradually taking control of the banks in Korea. Look at the brands, chains, and corporations that are extending their reach throughout Korea. |
You mean kinda like how Korean brands are creeping into the Chinese market? Or do you mean how the Korean brands of say, autos or cell phones absolutely dominate the domestic market?
| Austin wrote: |
| Do you know the story behind Daewoo? |
They had a real ugly headquarters in Seoul?
| Austin wrote: |
| Turn the light on before you respond and understand that the U.S. does not do things for altruistic reasons. The U.S. needs new, emerging markets, as it is the nature of our economic system. If we can not expand, or economy will stall. Korea was a part of that scenario. |
Really?? And here I was all these years thinking they overthrew Allende, backed Somoza and installed Saddam cuz they were such nice guys. Geez. What a dunce I am.
| Austin wrote: |
| Again, how can you claim we liberated Korea? We divided Korea for our own interests! Have not any of you heard of North and South Korea? Our interest was not based on what was best for the Korean people. One look at some of the actions that were taken by the USMG can dispel that myth in a second. |
Well, for one thing, we did. And while this doesn't mean it was done for 'altruistic reasons', or had some handsome dividends it certainly resulted in less misery than had the Japanese colonial system remained intact (as far as I can tell there's no 731 style camps remaining here) or Great Leader had his way. Sorry, but goosestepping in Pyongyang just ain't my idea of party down.
| Austin wrote: |
| Enjoy your weekend! |
You too! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Austin
Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:39 am Post subject: Definition... |
|
|
It comes down to symantecs...
What is your definition of "liberate" and "occupy?" The last time I checked the U.S. was maintaining military bases here.
Do you believe we reamain to help the South Korean people? If so, do you also believe that the U.S. entered Iraq for the good of the people of Iraq, Kuwait to help the people of Kuwait, Vietnam, Panama, Nicaragua, etc.?
Would you care to explain why a country that "claims" to support and defend "democracy" did not help the Korean people during the Kwangju uprising, when there was a massive democratic movement in Korea to overthrow the U.S. backed dictator?
Obviously, stability is more important than "liberty" when the U.S. is trying to realize "profits" from its investments. As a result, thousands of Korean people were murdered by the U.S. backed military dictator in 1980.
The following is from the newly declassified U.S. government documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act (though not all of the information was made available):
| Quote: |
| "In none of our discussions will we in any way suggest that the USG (U.S. government) opposes ROKG (Republic of Korea government) contingency plans to maintain law and order, if absolutely necessary, by reinforcing the police with the army." |
| Quote: |
| On May 22, 1980, in the midst of the Kwangju Uprising, the U.S. Administration approved further use of force to retake the city and agreed to provide short-term support to Mr. Chun if he agreed to long- term political change. |
Would you care to know what those "long-term" political changes were?
If the U.S. merely settled in Korea to help Koreans maintain their "liberty," why do they refuse on national security grounds to release the then senior military commander General Wickham's communications with his Korean counterparts or the US government relating to the massacre.
BTW, Bobster, I never claimed Korea was a "colony" of the U.S., merely that they replaced Japan with their own neocolonial geopolitical imperative.
Some claim Korea is better off today, but others might point to the fact that there are now more than 46 million consumers/workers to serve the U.S. regime.
Last edited by Austin on Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Of course, many of the South Koreans put in power and supported by the Americans were in fact people who had collaborated with the Japanese during the occupation. When we consider some of the shady characters who wound up running things down south, in fact, its not hard to see how war hero Kim Il-sung might have looked pretty good in comparison.
That said, to claim a total equivocation between the Imperial Japanese and the Americans is just loopy. The same thing happened in Eastern Europe, with fascist dictatorships being replaced by communist ones. But no sane person would say that Poland under the Communists was the same as Poland under the Nazis. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Austin
Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:56 am Post subject: No... |
|
|
| No person (sane or otherwise) claimed "total equivocation," just that one was replaced by the other. Moreover, it is not a matter of one being the "same" as the other, just that it is reasonable to see how Koreans could have an Anti-American bent, considering what the U.S. has done to their country. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Some claim Korea is better off today, but others might point to the fact that there are now more than 46 million consumers/workers to serve the U.S. regime.
|
Ah, yes. the old "free to drink Pepsi" argument, beloved by those thinkers on the left who find more depth in skateboard zines than they do in Karl Marx. Yes, Koreans are free to consume bad U.S. products, but they're also free(since the end of the dictatorship anyway) to hold protests against U.S. policy, read left-wing books, organize trade unions, go on strike for better wages, etc etc. Maybe you've read the other thread about the social studies curriculum which took a critical view of American imperialism. Ya think anti-Japanese stuff was being handed out in schools during the occupation?
Liberal capitalism provides far more space for dissent than do dictatorships or racist empires. The challenge for leftists, of course, is to use that space to organize and struggle for an improved social order, perhaps even ultimately overhtrowing liberal capitalism itself. Thus is the way paved to a world hitherto unimagined in terms of justice and freedom.
EDIT: Boy, do I look dumb. The thread I referred you to is the one we're on!
Last edited by On the other hand on Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Austin:
| Quote: |
| However, let us at least get the following straight: they did not liberate Korea, but merely replaced the Japanese with the U.S. neocolonial system |
I dunno. Sounds pretty equivocal to me.
| Quote: |
| it is reasonable to see how Koreans could have an Anti-American bent, considering what the U.S. has done to their country. |
No argument from me there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
to use that space to organize and struggle for an improved social order, perhaps even ultimately overhtrowing liberal capitalism itself. Thus is the way paved to a world hitherto unimagined in terms of justice and freedom.
|
Nope, liberal capitalism provides a better chance at justice and freedom than anything the left has ever come up with. Comunist and Socialist-based political models fail the reality test ever time, and they take away choice, and competition, the two conditions that allow humans to thrive and excel. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Austin
Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:53 am Post subject: Understanding... |
|
|
The point is that now that Koreans are starting to exercise their "rights" to speak more freely about what truly happened in the past, that others are attempting to silence them by claiming they are ungrateful, etc.
If what the U.S. did can stand the test of time, then let the information out and allow the people to decide! If it ends up creating Anti-American feelings, then so be it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
The point is that now that Koreans are starting to exercise their "rights" to speak more freely about what truly happened in the past, that others are attempting to silence them by claiming they are ungrateful, etc.
|
Much as I dislike the anti-Korean whining that takes place on this board, I would hardly call it "silencing" in any meaningful sense of the word, especially when compared to what goes on in situations of actual state oppression. You think any Koreans are gonna be deterred from speaking their mind just because a bunch of backpacking goofballs are complaining about it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| liberal capitalism provides a better chance at justice and freedom than anything the left has ever come up with. |
We should try to imagine, though, what liberal capitalism would be like without things like a welfare state, labour unions, and environmental regulation. Unless I'm misreading my history, it was not the captains of industry who led the fight for these advancements. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| We should try to imagine, though, what liberal capitalism would be like without things like a welfare state, labour unions, and environmental regulation. Unless I'm misreading my history, it was not the captains of industry who led the fight for these advancements. |
Well, liberal capitalism is not exclusively run and defined by the captains of industry, though they play a big part. Another key element of lib cap is democratic government. The state has a role to play. The welfare state, labour unions, and environmental regulation can and do exist alongside the comercial sector in this model. They certainly do in New Zealand anyway. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The welfare state, labour unions, and environmental regulation can and do exist alongside the comercial sector in this model. |
Indeed. My point was that it was the left, Socialists and sometimes even Communists, which fought to have these things included alongside the commercial sector. And, of course, once these things are implemented, society ceases to be liberal capitalist in the strict sense. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
