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What one thing would you change about Korea?
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The Man known as The Man



Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why I kept my reply short. I like most of Korea-and my natural inclination would be to give my spot on a subway or in line to an elderly woman but such ignorant and belligerent behaviour by an older woman is horrible.


ELBOWS UP
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Austin



Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:51 pm    Post subject: That's the problem Reply with quote

Some waykuk-in,

The scenario you posted was exactly my point, so I thank you for making it for me.

Why is it that you believe that students of varying abilities should not be in the same class? There are plenty of scholars and educators in the field of ESL/EFL that believe that a mixed-ability based classroom actually creates a more effective learning environment than a level-based classroom (research confirms it).

The suggestion by the parent was not unreasonable. However, your attitude about it was!

Do you believe that the latest research in mixed-ability classrooms is bogus, or are you just ignorant of the fact?

Either way, your closed-minded approach might be adding to your discontent at work.

William,

I hate to break it to you, but if I had wanted to befriend other foreigners, I would have stayed back in the states! I enjoy Korean and Korean people. My employer, my colleagues, and my dear friends are all the relationships that I care to maintain. Random people on the street or on this site can think and do what they like. Whether they like me or not is of little consequence, as they do not effect my life.

As for my disdain, if the shoe fits...

If what I post does not apply to certain people, I hardly see how they would become upset. However, when the truth is jabbed into another person's side, they are going to respond.
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kiwiboy_nz_99



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah the tired old "go home" argument. You don't seem to understand how dead that thing is. But since I'm feeling generous today I'll try to imagine you as a thinking human being as I write this.

For a start, people are on contracts that are hard to break, it's just not really an option to go home.

Secondly, a lot of people come here to make money, not to dive into the wonderful thing that is Korean culture.

No one is obliged to like everything about every country they live in, thier own or some one elses, and they are not obliged to keep quiet about it just so as to avoid affronting your delicate sensibilities.

People ( not you, but many others ) are capable of seeing things in more than black and white terms. For example, I like living here, I like the food, I like my job, my pay, my holidays, I like naurae bangs, dvd bangs, chimchilbangs, hell any kind of bang I like, I like the women, the nightlife, and the cost of living, and I like learning the language ( frustrating as it is, it's beautiful, an addictive challenge ) ... that doesn't mean I have to like the fact that I am a second class citizen under the law, that if I get beat up by a Korean I may very well be charged by the cops instead of defended, I don't have to like that my boss owns my visa and can manipulate and abuse me relatively free from hassle from the weak arm of the labour board, I don't have to like being verbally abused and threatened for walking with a Korean woman, and I don't have to like being charged a foreigner price on unmarked items.

Things are not black and white ( for grown ups anyway, don't worry, you'll get there some day sonny boy ), and it's monstrously arrogant to suggest we are not in control of our actions. In other words, if we wanted to go home we would. Now shut your ignorant pie hole and put your head back in the sand.
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William Beckerson
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: That's the problem Reply with quote

Austin wrote:

I hate to break it to you, but if I had wanted to befriend other foreigners, I would have stayed back in the states! I enjoy Korean and Korean people. My employer, my colleagues, and my dear friends are all the relationships that I care to maintain. Random people on the street or on this site can think and do what they like. Whether they like me or not is of little consequence, as they do not effect my life.

As for my disdain, if the shoe fits...

If what I post does not apply to certain people, I hardly see how they would become upset. However, when the truth is jabbed into another person's side, they are going to respond.


Oh, the most delicate rose is always protected by thorns...

Yeap, known a lot of people like you in my time. Absolute egotists with little to base it on who just CANT understand why others dont see the wisdom of being just like them. They're obviously stupid.

So they close the mental shuters around them, and toss on the crown of thorns before anyone else can, because it's a lot easier to drive people away from you before you give them a chance to dislike you.

Because, if it came down to keeping your ego and crappy attitude that your way is the best intact, or letting them go and start practicing what you preached... Well, your ego wins every time. It cant be hurt as easily.

You're an emotional coward, Tex. Lock them mental shutters up tight before you respond.
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Austin



Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:10 pm    Post subject: Name calling... Reply with quote

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people can not address issues without resorting to name-calling. What gives?

One previous poster was captain of name-calling. Unfortunately, he is dead, but the name calling continues.

Why can not people simply discuss things without resorting to being so weak?

My name is not Tex.

You may be confused with your assertion that I am a coward. I am may lack faith in humanity, but I do not lack it in myself.

I have learned many lessons in my life through my years of traveling abroad solo and meeting random people along the way. I am drawn to certain people and certain people are drawn to me. I do not expect everyone to like me (or things about me), as I do not like everyone (or many things about others).

If the above makes me weak, then I am.

However, I would like to point out that there are many ugly and bitter people in this world, and I avoid them, as they drain me. I pride myself in being as positive and helpful to those around me as possible. I prefer to be around people that are of sound mind and body. That are beautiful on the inside and of a kindred spirit.

Again, if that makes me weak, then I am.

I do not, nor would I ever frequent many of the establishments that several posters here go to on a regular basis. It is not my style, but they are free to do as they please. I leave them alone, and I would like the same treatment.

If what I post offends you, then do not read it. It is your choice, but I am not going to stop posting what I feel to be the truth, because those that come here for information need to be exposed to a broad range of views to find the "truth" for themselves!

Enjoy your weekend!
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William Beckerson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: Name calling... Reply with quote

Austin wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people can not address issues without resorting to name-calling. What gives?

It's a result of your passive-agressive means of insulting folks. The rest of us just havent figured out how to insult someone without being direct about it, like you have.

Quote:
Why can not people simply discuss things without resorting to being so weak?

See what I mean?

Quote:
You may be confused with your assertion that I am a coward. I am may lack faith in humanity, but I do not lack it in myself.

You seem to be constantly confusing "faith in oneself" with "demeaning others to make myself seem better"

Hence the name calling. Same as you, just less dressed up.

Quote:
I have learned many lessons in my life through my years of traveling abroad solo and meeting random people along the way. I am drawn to certain people and certain people are drawn to me. I do not expect everyone to like me (or things about me), as I do not like everyone (or many things about others).

If the above makes me weak, then I am.

The above is not related to my accusation of you being afraid to let go of your ego and attitudes. Something you endlessly preach at others to do.

Since you like quotes: "Physician, heal thyself."

Quote:
I pride myself in being as positive and helpful to those around me as possible.

But....Austin, in another thread, wrote:
I play the political game at school, but if I cover my own backside and other foreigners do not cover theirs, why should that be my problem?

Very helpful indeed.

Quote:
I prefer to be around people that are of sound mind and body. That are beautiful on the inside and of a kindred spirit.

Previous posts from you seem to suggest that this would be true if you were to add: "Must not be an expat who can see me for who I am."

Quote:
Again, if that makes me weak, then I am.

No, your unwillingness to examine why you piss everyone off when you try to give advice is what's making you weak.

Quote:
I do not, nor would I ever frequent many of the establishments that several posters here go to on a regular basis. It is not my style, but they are free to do as they please. I leave them alone, and I would like the same treatment.

Well, that's all great, but you're online and you do frequent a place the rest of them posters visit. Here. Your ability to adapt to a new environment seems to have been failing you for quite some time now.

Quote:
If what I post offends you, then do not read it.

There's the old "It's not me, I dont have to improve myself. You're just stupid" again. Something you claim is a bad thing when your advice gets rebuffed.

Practice what you preach, Tex.

Quote:
It is your choice, but I am not going to stop posting what I feel to be the truth, because those that come here for information need to be exposed to a broad range of views to find the "truth" for themselves!


Let me type this very slowly for you in the hopes that it can sneak past your mental censor this time. I dont hold out much hope because it's bounced off of your skull every time someone brings it up with you:

Your ego and arrogance is making it impossible for anyone to read all the usefull advice you have because they are too busy being insulted. Once you learn to drop your ego and stop treating everyone in such a condescending manner, you will find that more folks will appreciate what you have to say.

Why is this so hard for a smart office politician like youself to figure out?


Last edited by William Beckerson on Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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kiwiboy_nz_99



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beckerson downs Austin with a solid left hook in round three, Austin does not get up.
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Zed



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: That's the problem Reply with quote

Austin wrote:
Why is it that you believe that students of varying abilities should not be in the same class? There are plenty of scholars and educators in the field of ESL/EFL that believe that a mixed-ability based classroom actually creates a more effective learning environment than a level-based classroom (research confirms it).

The suggestion by the parent was not unreasonable. However, your attitude about it was!

Do you believe that the latest research in mixed-ability classrooms is bogus, or are you just ignorant of the fact.

"believe" is the key word you used here. Yes, I believe it's bogus. I fully agree with some waygukin that putting a level 2 student in a level 5 or 6 class has a negative impact on the class as a whole (unless you ignore the student entirely). I've been teaching here for 2.5 years and my empirical conclusions are that streamlined classes work better. Results are visible and activities possible.
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kiwiboy_nz_99



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
research confirms it

Please cite the research that claims mixed ability classes are more benificial. I'm doing pre-reading for my TESOL MA and everything I read says the opposite. I'm sure there are researchers out there who disagree, but I'd like to see a sourse.
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The Man known as The Man



Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Name calling... Reply with quote

William Beckerson wrote:
Austin wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people can not address issues without resorting to name-calling. What gives?

It's a result of your passive-agressive means of insulting folks. The rest of us just havent figured out how to insult someone without being direct about it, like you have.

Quote:
Why can not people simply discuss things without resorting to being so weak?

See what I mean?




princess, this is the edited version of The Best Post of the Week.


honorable mention to Denz but waht cost you is its Autism, not Down Syndrome.


HTH
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is it that you believe that students of varying abilities should not be in the same class? There are plenty of scholars and educators in the field of ESL/EFL that believe that a mixed-ability based classroom actually creates a more effective learning environment than a level-based classroom (research confirms it).

So you are saying we should all abandon levels altogether then? Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Perhaps we should start the little preschoolers out on Interchange 3, for example, or maybe the most recent edition of the New York Times? Shocked Shocked Shocked Confused Wink



I am not calling into question anything regarding research. There is a whole universe of difference between 'research' subjects who "want" to learn English and the average hagwan kid who is only there because his parents send him everyday. Shocked Shocked Shocked

The students who have reached level 6 (I mean the real level 6 students here) have shown at least some willingness to learn the language and have aquired the necessary vocabulary and grammar skills to at least comprehend the focus of the lesson. Confused Confused

What happens when you put a level 2 kid into a level 6 class is this ....
the real level 6 students quit because they don't want to be in a class with a little kid, going over the ABC's. After that, the director blames me and says it was all my fault for not keeping the class "interesting".

So the end result is the loss of the level 6 students and turning a level 6 class back into a level 1 or 2.

So if you still think that this isn't "stupid" and a huge waste of time, then please explain to me why you think the way you do. Confused Confused


That is only one example of the miryad of "stupid" things I have to deal with everyday.

EX: 1. A classroom set up for kindergarten, with tiny little chairs and an even smaller white board. I am expected to teach level 3 and level 4 classes in this room, (even though other rooms are available)
half the kids can't see the board and there's always one or 2 kids that run up so they can see and as a result block the other students.

2. There are 2 foreign teachers here and 6 Korean teachers teaching a mixture of levels,sometimes requiring the same textbook for 2 or three different classes. The director is too cheap to allow each teacher a copy of the textbook, we have to share one textbook and one set of tapes between us regardless of how many classes there are needing that textbook. (She could at least provide 2 or 3 copies for us to share) Rolling Eyes

3. There is a no discipline policy at the school which results in chaos. I am not supposed to reprimand, scold or even say negative things to a student, no matter what they are doing. If the kids are bouncing off the walls, I am supposed to sit there calmly and say, "Oh well, they are just kids". Confused

4. The kids are pushed through the textbooks at 3 times the recommended speed and often skip 1 or 2 or even 3 levels. This has resulted in most students studying material that is 2 or 3 levels too difficult for them. The one's who are at the proper level do the work, while the others just copy. This is just wasting time. They are not learning anything by blindly copying. Rolling Eyes

5. Often classes are combined that may have been using the same textbook, but one group was on page 50 and the other on page 10.

6. I am asked to do level testing of new students, which I do regularly, after I submit my recommendations the student is placed into whatever level the parent chooses. ( regardless of what I think)

7. The kids are working through an average of 3 textbooks at the same time. The one that I teach, plus two more that the Korean teachers teach.
There is no effort being made to coordinate what I am doing with what the Korean teachers are doing. This ensures that the students are overloaded, confused, tired and learning very little. Confused

I do the best I can at this place, and I try not to complain (at school). I try to keep a smiling face and to promote "harmony", but I still can not see this as anything but a stupid waste of time.

Incidently, what ages and levels do you teach?

Is it at a hagwan or a real school, or perhaps at a university?

I am just curious.


Last edited by some waygug-in on Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Odysseus



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiwiboy-NZ-99 wrote:
Quote:
that doesn't mean I have to like the fact that I am a second class citizen under the law, that if I get beat up by a Korean I may very well be charged by the cops instead of defended, I don't have to like that my boss owns my visa and can manipulate and abuse me relatively free from hassle from the weak arm of the labour board, I don't have to like being verbally abused and threatened for walking with a Korean woman, and I don't have to like being charged a foreigner price on unmarked items.

Things are not black and white


So true!!!!!!
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you got me started, just one more reason why mixed level classes are problematic.

It has more to do with the age and temperment of the students involved, but I see this happen from time to time.

The older students (usually boys) tend to bully the younger students, turning otherwise fun activities into experiments in anger management.


I can only conclude by saying that "a lot of hagwans" are nothing more than glorified baby-sitting services and I have to seriously question anyone who defends them as being anything more than scams.

have a nice weekend, too. Cool
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coolsage



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: The overcast afternoon of the soul

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The spitting has to go. And soap and paper towels in the bathrooms would be a fine first-world feature as well.
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posco's trumpet



Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: Beneath the Underdog

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by posco's trumpet on Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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