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Resolve Disputes Instead of Bashing Schools!
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Jeff's Cigarettes



Joined: 27 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassexpander wrote:

I was just asking for more information from him as to the post.


It was a fair and obvious question.
It certainly deserved a responce, and I think it rather pathetic that none has been given yet.

Do any of the moderating team have an opinion about this mediation idea or the impliciation that complaining about your school is now a no-no here?
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babtangee



Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff's Cigarettes wrote:
bassexpander wrote:

I was just asking for more information from him as to the post.


It was a fair and obvious question.
It certainly deserved a responce, and I think it rather pathetic that none has been given yet.

Do any of the moderating team have an opinion about this mediation idea or the impliciation that complaining about your school is now a no-no here?


Did you really have to request mod involvement...?
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Jeff's Cigarettes



Joined: 27 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

babtangee wrote:

Did you really have to request mod involvement...?


Since the majority of posters have pointed out what a stupid idea this is, I was just curious whether those running the forums agreed or not.

If Dave's post is indeed an indication that airing complaints here is no longer desirable, - and I hope it isn't - then it would be nice to get that either confirmed or denied.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes it's better not to ask particular questions (and just assume that you can still express complaints and criticisms - but in a more positive, less nasty way...)

Anyway, I think it's reasonable that the interests of both teachers and schools have to be considered when establishing guidelines for this type of commercially sponsored forum.

I think the number of totally unscrupulous schools in Korea comprises a relatively small percentage of the total - probably no greater than the percentage of undesirable types who have somehow gotten hired as teachers.

Although many hogwan directors with less than sparkling management skills have more-or-less forced some native-English teachers to quit, it's fair to assume that a significant number of such so-called (often hung-over) teachers were actually not fit to teach.

No doubt some of the people who make vile posts here about Korean schools and Korean culture in general have less than sparkling characters themselves - as reflected in the style and content of their posts.

On the other hand, some posters with grievances are undoubtedly sincere, and they just seek some constructive advice or want to give a heads-up to others.

As far as possible, completely negative and excessively nasty posts/posters should be weeded out...
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PhD



Joined: 15 May 2007

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea of mediation is great, but arbitration is not a good idea. It deprives both parties of all control over the outcome. Basically, you give the information to the arbitrators and "trust" that the outcome will come out in your favor. Arbitration without the weight of the civil court system to back it up is just NOT going to work here. It has VERY little chance of the two parties cooperating with the decision.

Mediation, on the other hand, puts all of the control in the hands of the parties to the dispute, but provides an third party who "mediates" the dispute to try to get to the bottom of the problem. Any agreement generated by mediation is on that is arrived at by the two disputants. The likelyhood of the disputants following such an agreement is MUCH higher with mediation.
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Don Gately



Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Location: In a basement taking a severe beating

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassexpander wrote:
I didn't mean to touch off a free-for-all against Dave. I think maybe he saw a site that looked interesting, and thought it might be helpful to someone. I'm going to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he posted it before breakfast, and kept it short because he had to drive kids to school... who knows?

I was just asking for more information from him as to the post.


Don't flatter yourself, kid. This would be the reaction regardless of what you said.
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confused and upset



Joined: 30 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhD wrote:
The idea of mediation is great, but arbitration is not a good idea. It deprives both parties of all control over the outcome. Basically, you give the information to the arbitrators and "trust" that the outcome will come out in your favor. Arbitration without the weight of the civil court system to back it up is just NOT going to work here. It has VERY little chance of the two parties cooperating with the decision.

Mediation, on the other hand, puts all of the control in the hands of the parties to the dispute, but provides an third party who "mediates" the dispute to try to get to the bottom of the problem. Any agreement generated by mediation is on that is arrived at by the two disputants. The likelyhood of the disputants following such an agreement is MUCH higher with mediation.


Where can I learn more about mediation? Is there anyone in Busan that provides this service?
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

confused and upset wrote:
PhD wrote:
The idea of mediation is great, but arbitration is not a good idea. It deprives both parties of all control over the outcome. Basically, you give the information to the arbitrators and "trust" that the outcome will come out in your favor. Arbitration without the weight of the civil court system to back it up is just NOT going to work here. It has VERY little chance of the two parties cooperating with the decision.

Mediation, on the other hand, puts all of the control in the hands of the parties to the dispute, but provides an third party who "mediates" the dispute to try to get to the bottom of the problem. Any agreement generated by mediation is on that is arrived at by the two disputants. The likelyhood of the disputants following such an agreement is MUCH higher with mediation.


Where can I learn more about mediation? Is there anyone in Busan that provides this service?


Yeah, the Labor Board. That's all they are unless and until the legislature gets realistic and endows them with the power to enforce their decisions. The big problem with mediation in Korea, though, is that the hagweon owners will not abide by the mediator's decision. They often refuse to abide by the court's decision!
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PhD



Joined: 15 May 2007

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:

Yeah, the Labor Board. That's all they are unless and until the legislature gets realistic and endows them with the power to enforce their decisions. The big problem with mediation in Korea, though, is that the hagweon owners will not abide by the mediator's decision. They often refuse to abide by the court's decision!


Mediators don't make decisions. The parties to the dispute have all the power to make the mediated agreement. All a mediator does is moderate the dispute until an agreement is reached between parties.
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kermo



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About 4 schools currently listed on esljudge.com. The schools are given ratings like "about average." What does that mean to someone who doesn't know the possible pitfalls of Korean schools? Sadly, absolutely nothing.
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confused and upset



Joined: 30 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kermo wrote:
About 4 schools currently listed on esljudge.com. The schools are given ratings like "about average." What does that mean to someone who doesn't know the possible pitfalls of Korean schools? Sadly, absolutely nothing.


That's a good point. I hope new people will do their homework and choose carefully.
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mark dew



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mediation?? what a laugh!
That's hangul for "do nothing" or "the waygookin will leave the country eventually."
It's a noble cause but when you've been ripped off and you've got bills to pay at the end of the month, mediation is just playing into the hands of the owners, employers.
What's in it for the teachers??
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhD wrote:
CentralCali wrote:

Yeah, the Labor Board. That's all they are unless and until the legislature gets realistic and endows them with the power to enforce their decisions. The big problem with mediation in Korea, though, is that the hagweon owners will not abide by the mediator's decision. They often refuse to abide by the court's decision!


Mediators don't make decisions. The parties to the dispute have all the power to make the mediated agreement. All a mediator does is moderate the dispute until an agreement is reached between parties.


Which is the problem with the whole concept if one wishes to try it in South Korea. The hagweon owners don't do what the courts order them to. What makes anyone think that the lying, thieving, scamming hagweon owners have any intention of following a mere suggestion from someone with the same authority to force them to act as a pebble in the street?

There is already an agreement in place between the parties involved. That agreement is called a contract. The hagweon owners routinely urinate on and defecate on the contract. This whole "Let's mediate instead of blacklist the hagweons" idea is a joke! I would love to know who's really behind the idea. If I were a betting man, I might not shy away from saying, "Hagweon Associations." They can now say, "Hey, we tried to mediate in good faith with the teachers but they refused to go to a mediator. Look at how mean and vicious the teachers are to us poor, put-upon hagweon owners who, of course, hold the education of your precious children, the pride of our beloved Korea, closest to our hearts." And who do you think the fee-paying parents are going to believe, the foreign teacher (who, as all the Korean fee-paying parents know, are riddled with disease, drunks, just greedy, etc.) or the KOREAN boss?
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chronicpride



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For someone who doesn't do many endorsements of other sites, he sure picked a doozy to plug. ESL blacklists sites promising to be 'the ESL blacklist site that is going to change the industry' have an abysmal track record. He should've waited to see if they lasted 6 months. They didn't even last long enough to add content to their About Us page. Confused
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AliNZ



Joined: 11 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:10 pm    Post subject: mediation Reply with quote

Poor Dave!! I am giving him the benefit of the doubt too.

However, having spent some years in South Korea and not only hearing, but experiencing, various horror stories of unscrupulous, lying Korean bosses, I doubt the value of handling disputes through mediation.

My previous hogwan boss lied to and about me constantly. He thought nothing of it. He apologised some times and explained he thought he had to. Not an easy fix to that. I just hope his lies can't stop me returning...but fear they will!
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