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The Korean Language Question And Answer Thread
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nate1983



Joined: 30 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:
설날 -> 설랄

written: 설날
pronounced: 설랄 (ㄴ -> ㄹ)

as for the question, "what does 설 mean?" ...

turns out that 설날 really came from 섣날 which was hard to pronounce so they changed that to 설날 . Here, 섣 means ... I don't know. I can only find on naver's dictionary that 섣달 means the twelfth month of the lunar year


I think the correct pronunciation is actually 설-날 and ㄴ -> ㄹ does not apply here. I realize many Koreans say "설랄" and there is stuff on the internet suggesting that that's how it's pronounced, but I'm inclined to believe the evidence to the contrary. Most pronunciation "rules" in Korean do have exceptions, and I believe this is one of them.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it though...
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salutbonjour



Joined: 22 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nate1983 wrote:
joesp wrote:
설날 -> 설랄

written: 설날
pronounced: 설랄 (ㄴ -> ㄹ)

as for the question, "what does 설 mean?" ...

turns out that 설날 really came from 섣날 which was hard to pronounce so they changed that to 설날 . Here, 섣 means ... I don't know. I can only find on naver's dictionary that 섣달 means the twelfth month of the lunar year


I think the correct pronunciation is actually 설-날 and ㄴ -> ㄹ does not apply here. I realize many Koreans say "설랄" and there is stuff on the internet suggesting that that's how it's pronounced, but I'm inclined to believe the evidence to the contrary. Most pronunciation "rules" in Korean do have exceptions, and I believe this is one of them.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it though...


It's pronounced 설랄
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Seoulman69



Joined: 14 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

여러분안녕,
Here's a question for you:

앤디 씨가 어디에 있어요? Andy where is?
앤디 씨가 집에 있어요. Andy home is.

Both of these sentences us the 가 marker.

앤디 씨 여기 있어요? Andy here is?

Why does the previous sentence not use the 가 marker or the 에?
Why is it not 앤디 씨가 여기에 있어요?
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nate1983



Joined: 30 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seoulman69 wrote:
여러분안녕,
Here's a question for you:

앤디 씨가 어디에 있어요? Andy where is?
앤디 씨가 집에 있어요. Andy home is.

Both of these sentences us the 가 marker.

앤디 씨 여기 있어요? Andy here is?

Why does the previous sentence not use the 가 marker or the 에?
Why is it not 앤디 씨가 여기에 있어요?


Because particles are generally omitted. You would never hear 앤디 씨가 여기에 있어요 outside of a beginning Korean class.
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seoulman69 wrote:

앤디 씨가 어디에 있어요? Andy where is?
앤디 씨가 집에 있어요. Andy home is.


There is no space between a name and 씨

nate1983 wrote:
You would never hear 앤디 씨가 여기에 있어요 outside of a beginning Korean class.


No problem.

If anybody wants to really impress me, can you help me answer my translation questions on my forum: http://ezcorean.com/f_index.php and I will extend muchas gracias^^
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javis



Joined: 28 Feb 2013

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:Double post:

Last edited by javis on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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javis



Joined: 28 Feb 2013

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:


If anybody wants to really impress me, can you help me answer my translation questions on my forum: http://ezcorean.com/f_index.php and I will extend muchas gracias^^

Are those translations just for your personal study, or for something else?
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thatkidpercy



Joined: 05 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:
Seoulman69 wrote:

앤디 씨가 어디에 있어요? Andy where is?
앤디 씨가 집에 있어요. Andy home is.


There is no space between a name and 씨


I'm pretty sure that "앤디 씨" is correct.

http://cozoo.blog.me/40042131970
http://cafe.naver.com/hanmal/16429
http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=11&dirId=110801&docId=44685300&qb=652E7Ja07JOw6riwIOyUqA==&enc=utf8&section=kin&rank=1&search_sort=0&spq=0
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://cozoo.blog.me/40042131970

-> point #1 says: we say name^씨 when we are talking about one person, and name씨 when we are referring to the whole family.
-> point #2 says: didn't look at this one (not pertinent)

http://cafe.naver.com/hanmal/16429

-> this page doesn't show up in my browser

http://kin.naver.com/qna/detail.nhn?d1id=11&dirId=110801&docId=44685300&qb=652E7Ja07JOw6riwIOyUqA==&enc=utf8&section=kin&rank=1&search_sort=0&spq=0

-> no 띄어쓰기 (no space) for family name+가 (가 is 家); that is, when referring to a household or blood line.
However,
Quote:
이름 또는 성명에 붙는 '씨'는 호칭어인 까닭에 띄어 씁니다.
When 씨 is attached to a name, use a space because it is an epithet.
예) 수영 씨, 김수영 씨

and
Quote:
씨'가 어느 한 개인을 지칭할 때는 띄어 씁니다.
When using 씨 to refer to one specific individual, use a space.
예) 김 씨가 그 일을 했다./ 우리나라에서 김씨가 제일 큰 성이다.


Thanks for the links. They explain when you do and don't need a space pretty well. Seems both with and without a space are correct, depending. Cool!


Last edited by joesp on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

javis wrote:
Are those translations just for your personal study, or for something else?

for the paid translation of a novel. I make a living doing editing and translation. I still haven't passed level 6 of TOPIK yet (just level 5, three times nonetheless!), but my translations are superior than Koreans' because of my very high English fluency. One missed nuance or word mis-translation is nothing compared to the fluency barrier Koreans can't seem to get over, which creates more mis-understanding. Ha ha.

If a Korean explains to me what I don't get, the rest is easy. I need help at the early stage, not the final stage like the Koreans do. And usually they just murder it.

I wish there was a forum that was actually alive for me to ask Koreans those questions on ... what a huge gap in the Internet study of Korean there.

I logged in here today just to tell everybody I passed level 3 of the 한자능력검정시험, the standard hanja test. That's for 1,800 hanja reading and 1,000 writing. They way it works is that to pass level 3, you have to write all the hanja for level 4.

My translator buddy scored an average of 85 on the advanced TOPIK. I have never heard of such an awesome score before. I really am in awe in front of his incredible Korean ability.

Isn't all that interesting??

I have been studying hanja for the last 2 years to pass that exam. I had to learn them bad boys six-ways-to-Sunday and then some.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:

I logged in here today just to tell everybody I passed level 3 of the 한자능력검정시험, the standard hanja test. That's for 1,800 hanja reading and 1,000 writing. They way it works is that to pass level 3, you have to write all the hanja for level 4.


Congratulations, that's a serious accomplishment for a non-Korean (and a non-trivial one even for a Korean).

I know about 1800 Hanja (read & write) myself, but I'm still 300 or 400 shy of the 1800 needed for 3급 because a big chunk of mine are from Classical Chinese texts, meaning they're either only applicable to the really high level tests, or simply not on the testing scheme at all.
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thatkidpercy



Joined: 05 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:

I logged in here today just to tell everybody I passed level 3 of the 한자능력검정시험, the standard hanja test. That's for 1,800 hanja reading and 1,000 writing. They way it works is that to pass level 3, you have to write all the hanja for level 4.


Nicely done! I remember a few of my Korean friends were studying for the hanja exam a few years ago to add to their job hunting "spec", but I'm sure their level wasn't that high.

I studied Japanese before Korean and learning kanji wasn't too bad because you see them all the time and eventually learn to sort of sight-read the characters, but I'm curious how you keep the information fresh if you're studying hanja for Korean? Do you have some texts that use hanja for Sino-Korean words?
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
I know about 1800 Hanja (read & write) myself, but I'm still 300 or 400 shy of the 1800 needed for 3급 because a big chunk of mine are from Classical Chinese texts, meaning they're either only applicable to the really high level tests, or simply not on the testing scheme at all.


Yes, I know how you feel. After you get passed level three, there are very few hanja that are actually used. If you decide to buckle down and try to knock out the 300 or 400 to get a resume-builder and impress people .... I can say that part of the problem in terms of applicability of the material for the level 3 exam (yes, even for level 3, let alone a higher level such as 2) lies not just in the hanja but in their stupid definitions that you have to memorize.

you can also pass 3II which is 1,400 hanja. May be easier. Skipping a level will mean you are ill-prepared for the types of questions they ask on the exam, even if you "think you know the hanja".

Clearly, 容 (which is a level 4 hanja) has two major meanings, namely 얼굴 용 (the face) or 받아들일 용 (to accept). However, you have to memorize just 얼굴 용 and write that on the test to be sure of having a correct answer.

They should use a different testing method than simply the memorization of and writing of one such definition. It is a waste of energy to have to memorize which of the two is the "accepted major definition" . Memorizing the hanja themselves and using them well should receive the emphasis.

Then, there is the other problem of them even choosing stupid meanings for the hanja, such as 綱 which is defined as 벼리 강, where 벼리 means the guide ropes at the edge of a fishing net. Nobody really cares about what 벼리 is, why do they define some of them with such obscure definitions.

Furthermore, 50 out of 150 test questions are (105 are needed to pass) are the following (the test structure is different for levels higher than 4):

1) 고사성어, those 4-letter sayings Koreans don't even use or remember
(10 of those! )
You have to fill in the missing hanja: 斷 金 之 交 단금지교 벗의 사귐이 쇠를 끊는 것과 같다 (A deep friendship).

They will leave out one of the hanja on the test, you have to write it down. Very difficult. For one, because every book has a 1,000 entry long list of different ones. And, there seems to be an infinite number of them.

2) memorizing stupid opposites, both 'opposite hanja' and 'opposing words'.
2b) memorizing 'words made of similar hanja' which are words that are probably not used, outside of the test

3) which hanja have long and short sounds (nobody pronounces them differently, why is this even part of the test?)

4) what is the radical of the hanja, which never follows the rules anyways.
e.g. 禽 -> 禸

Nobody is going to use a hanja dictionary to look up a hanja in Korean, the words are written in hangul these days.

5) write the definition in Korean (not sure how a foreigner is supposed to get any of those 100% correct)

6) writing the simplified form of characters.

This is basically the Chinese or Japanese form, which is always simpler. That was also 5 questions.

I felt like a high school student studying stupid stuff for the 수능 or something. But, it's good for my life! says so on the certificate! '평생' validity!

Hopefully I can impress a lot of people. As a translator looking for gigs, this should help me out as a foreigner, although there were the above negatives about getting the minimum required passing score.


Last edited by joesp on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joesp wrote:

3) which hanja have long and short sounds (nobody pronounces them differently, why is this even part of the test?)


How do you even find the answers to these without buying some sort of test study book anyway? They were on the level 4 test as well, and no one could tell me where such information could be found. I mean, four character proverbs? Okay, that's Hanja related. But this?
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joesp



Joined: 16 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thatkidpercy wrote:
I studied Japanese before Korean and learning kanji wasn't too bad because you see them all the time and eventually learn to sort of sight-read the characters


Yes, I wonder how the Japanese test foreigners. I think the Japs will have more practical testing techniques than the Koreans. I felt like a 조선 선비 (Confucian scholar in a funny hat) or something.

thatkidpercy wrote:
I'm curious how you keep the information fresh if you're studying hanja for Korean? Do you have some texts that use hanja for Sino-Korean words?


They have a ton of books. You have to work through the books level-by-level. Do lots of practice exams. And lots of repitition. You think you know a hanja, but then you see some similar-looking beast and you get all confused again and have to start over from the new angle .... sometimes you go to write it and know some other constituent hanja-part belongs somewhere, but can't remember which one .... takes lots of practice.

I got to be so angry at myself for having to study them so much I couldn't give up until I passed the test. At times, I just wanted to kill myself. Took me 4 tries. I think I studied hanja for an hour a day for 2 years to pass. No kidding. They got really confusing to me after level four. There get to be so many and they all look similar to at least a few other ones. Both in meaning and form. I hope it was worth it. Well, even if it wasn't, I feel a sense of accomplishment because it became like a personal vendetta against the fricking Korean language and the fricking test.
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