|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
hojucandy
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: In a better place
|
 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: weapons |
 |
|
| Ilsanman wrote: |
Actually I often see kids here with exacto knives. I tell them to put it away, quite forcefully, but they don't seem to see a problem with having a knife.
I worry. These kids have proven they will cross the line that I never dreamed of crossing when I was young, that is, touching and trying to hurt a teacher. A few weeks ago, I got punched in the balls by some student, and he saw no problem with doing that. I don't want these kids having knives. |
simple - confiscate them. i often have. i give them back at the end of class and tell them never to bring them again. if i see them again - then they lose the offending article for good.
same goes for anything that does not belong in a classroom - bb guns, even avatar diaries.... (deadly items these)
i have always had the full support of th ekorean teachers when i have done this. they do it too!
535 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Blind Willie
Joined: 05 May 2004
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Just because a hagwon isn't functioning as a real school doesn't mean one kid can disrupt the proceedings. Movie theatres aren't schools either, but they can still eject patrons for talking too loudly. |
I got the "we dont want to lose students" speech that I was thankfully spared from at my last job. I told the boss, "Hey, you're paying me. Sure"
I'm looking at this current run in Korea as nothing more than a money grab. I'm tired of all attempts to play teacher getting shot down. Three very eventful years, and I only had one hagwon that cared about learning... and it was at a chain that everyone claims to be evil: Kids Herald.... go figure.
Regardless, if my current hagwon goes under because of their own pandering to kids, then I take the money they gave me to do exactly what they wanted, and head for greener pastures. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michelle
Joined: 18 May 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Curiousity......... |
|
|
| Austin wrote: |
How do you present yourself to your students on a regular basis? Are you dressed casually, or are you dressed professionally? Do you manage your classes with an air of professionalism, or do you arrive late and unprepared? Can you understand your students, and can your students understand you? Do you pace your classes to perfection, or do you raise you voice and yell at your students every two minutes in an attempt to get them motivated and on task? Are you in control of your class, or is your class in control of you?
I only ask these things, because so many of the problems that have been listed in this thread can be associated with the points listed above.
If your students appreciated your ability and viewed you as an "awesome" teacher, I doubt you would ever encounter the things that many of you do. One only needs to reflect back on their days as a student to appreciate what I am trying to say. Can you remember the great teachers that you had? Can you recall the "bad" ones?
You figure it out! |
Sometimes your experience as a teacher can help you control /motivate/ discipline the kids better. Your relationship with them is important, too.
This I agree with. the kids like it if the classes are a bit easy and fun.
As for the air of professionalism the kids don't care, unless they are quite a bit older. Young adults and adults are more likely to give a damn. In so much as professionalism contibutes to the above (and it does a little) it's useful.
It would be a boon with the parents (your customers) if you were professional. They would likely complain if you were a bum.
Sometimes they like to pretend it matters. Hagwons also like to put it back on you. You can do better and make your own job much easier and make them feel secure if you are organised.
"Awesome teacher?" Hmmm. But for kids doesn't this less often equate to someone getting them to do a lot of work, and more often being relaxed, fun and teaching them a lot? Preperation I agree with but fun teachers are sometimes more off the cuff.
I don't know whether your argument stands up.
I did my best to look professional for my university job. After all, they had dubbed me the great honour of the title of professor.
The students reaction: 'Why are you always so dressed up?'
God save me, I was thinking I was doing wrong by dressing casually for the hagwon, after all, I was meeting other teachers and parents every day. The Korean teavhers had also drilled in to me that makeup was a definite necessity, and are quick to point out any flaw in clothing. 
Give me a break people |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Homer
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Say you open a chicken restaurant and nobody comes. So, you switch to beef, and start making money head over heels. Would you listen to someone who complained that you were ignoring your obligation to sell chicken? |
That is not a valid analogy in my opinion.
One: you are selling a product: chicken or beef.
Two: You are talking about education to human beings.
These are completely different.
Many hakwons are indeed run by directors whose only goal is profit and high enrollment.
However, that goal is not mutually exclusive to education.
Furthermore, the teacher has a lot to say about what goes on in his classroom and about what his students learn.
If you come in and assume your director is just here for profit and therefore you will just play games because that is what the customer wants then you are just perpetuating the problem.
Also, many people seem to think that the problems they have with students are unique to Korean teaching conditions.
Newsflash: teaching is difficult and often times a teacher is put in a less then ideal teaching environment.
The location may change but the job remains the same: make sure your students learn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's for sure, teaching is difficult. And difficult kids is a bigg'un. With kids, under 13, it's possible to be the drill sergeant and bellow at dissension and this is accepted. But with 13 and up there steps in the element of 'customer service' and being diplomatic. I believe the wonjonim mans the phonelines making excuses, apologies, and generally covering the hindparts of teacher's brash mannerisms under siege or criticism from parents who get a 'kid-friendly' victim's version of events from the child.
Crazy place the haggie some whirling days, it seems. Especially the teens who decide to take the law into their own hands and get snotty. I've had times where I've 'raised the roof' and laid down the law, red faced and telling them, 'now, get out' after giving them the low down. But the class holds together and when I look back on those tumultuous days when some kids were pushing to see how much I'd take it seems miraculous we're still together as a class.
For example, Julia. She's 12 and one day she says I've been drinking 'sul' (alcohol) because I have a red face. So she's asking 'teacher drink sul?' and a couple of the other girls get in on this. I explain to them that I talk ALL the time (rapidly firing questions they can understand and answer upping the difficulty, gradually, every day but asking questions all the time) and Julia and the gals get this look like, oops, we were rude and yeah, he does talk all the time  . Well, a few days after that Julia comes back with some attitude along the lines of the 'drinking sul' 'accusation' and I say 'Julia, come here' and indicate by the desk where I'm at. I wanted to talk to her while she stood there but I guess she assumed I wanted to hit her, because alot of hitting goes on in Korean schools, apparently. So she goes into a sort of sobbing fit, hyperventilating, heaving, head down as a sort of defence mechanism after refusing to come over. In such a state she's a bomb going off. No one go near! The other kids are taking up the slack and pitching answers as class goes on in spite of the sobbing. BUT from that time Julia says hi in the halls and becomes top student, eyes shining and completely 'on my side'.
So yeah, teaching is difficult for everybody, students and teacher alike. But it gets back to teaching, and keeps happening.
At the end of the day if I choose to be bummed out I can easily recall some 'attempted humiliation' where, say, some little kid says 'puck you, pabo' and gives me the finger. Which they wouldn't do in a Korean teacher's class. But I looked into the open door of a Korean teacher's class and the kids are so reserved, upright, and formal looking. Not like with the foreign teacher. So the familiarity has its ups and downs and the ups are worth the downs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
just because
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Location: Changwon - 4964
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| caprtain kirk wrote: |
| For example, Julia. She's 12 and one day she says I've been drinking 'sul' (alcohol) because I have a red face. So she's asking 'teacher drink sul?' and a couple of the other girls get in on this. |
I get this a lot too. i just say of course. Do you want to join me in some  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Quote:
Say you open a chicken restaurant and nobody comes. So, you switch to beef, and start making money head over heels. Would you listen to someone who complained that you were ignoring your obligation to sell chicken?
That is not a valid analogy in my opinion.
One: you are selling a product: chicken or beef.
Two: You are talking about education to human beings.
These are completely different.
Many hakwons are indeed run by directors whose only goal is profit and high enrollment.
However, that goal is not mutually exclusive to education.
|
Homer:
What obligation does the teacher have to provide a certain standard of education, when the students don't want that standard and the hagwon owner doesn't want to sell it to them? Where exactly do you think hagwon teachers get their mandate from? God in heaven?
| Quote: |
If you come in and assume your director is just here for profit and therefore you will just play games because that is what the customer wants then you are just perpetuating the problem.
|
WHAT problem? The students want you to entertain them. The director wants you to entertain them. So, you entertain them, and the hagwon enrollment increases. Students happy, director happy. The only problem I see here is that entertaining students doesn't conform to your lofty notions of what a teacher should do. But the hagwon isn't in operation to increase your sense of self-respect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chiaa
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Teachers offended by what their kids say and do |
|
|
| Dan wrote: |
I don't get that at all. I mean they're kids. they don't know enough about life to know what is proper and improper. Ohhhh, those kids were happy when the WTC was attacked. so what, they don't know enough to feel sympathy.
I know a lot of you also hate the harpoon/kancho thing, but you know, in their own way, its a sign of affection. because they are saying they know you well enough to do something that nasty. not that i enjoy it at all, but then i only had that happen one time, and the rest of the kids ganged up on the kid that did it and told him how rude and gross that was.
and just remember, at least they're not bringing box cutters and .22s to school ^^ |
I don't agree. Kim Sun Il (whatever his name is) jokes would not have gone over well if I was still teaching. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="On the other hand]
What obligation does the teacher have to provide a certain standard of education, when the students don't want that standard and the hagwon owner doesn't want to sell it to them? Where exactly do you think hagwon teachers get their mandate from? God in heaven?
WHAT problem? The students want you to entertain them. The director wants you to entertain them. So, you entertain them, and the hagwon enrollment increases. Students happy, director happy. The only problem I see here is that entertaining students doesn't conform to your lofty notions of what a teacher should do. But the hagwon isn't in operation to increase your sense of self-respect.[/quote]
Don't work at such a hakwon then. Problem solved. As far as entertaining the students, entertainment and education are NOT mutually exclusive. The fact that you tend to think so, says more about your style of teaching than it does about Mr. Homer's.
You were hired to be a teacher. You should do your job to the best of your ability. This includes checking the hakwon out to see if you are allowed to teach or are just expected to be a baby-sitter. This includes being both entertaining and informative in the classroom regardless of management's wrong-headed expectations. This is why many hakwons only expect the foreign teacher to be a baby-sitter because many teachers can't teach and just act like a clown.
If a particular hakwon refuses to let you be a real teacher, then don't work there. If more teachers would refuse these kinds of baby-sitting jobs, then maybe standards would go up as a whole. But then that would mean that they would actually have to teach for a change instead of playing Bingo and hangman. But this would actually be a good thing because then we could at least get rid of the worst riff-raff instead of having to tolerate them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| You were hired to be a teacher. You should do your job to the best of your ability. This includes checking the hakwon out to see if you are allowed to teach or are just expected to be a baby-sitter. This includes being both entertaining and informative in the classroom regardless of management's wrong-headed expectations. |
The management's wrong-headed expectations? You make it sound like the management is just some guy a street corner, spouting off his opinion about what hagwons should be like. In fact, the management are the people who hire you, sign your paycheque, and pay the overhead for running the school. The manager might be a devout pedagogue, or he might be be Bozo the Clown, but at the end of the day he runs the show. And the name of the show is "Make Money". The show you're thinking of, "Provide An Atmosphere For Teachers To Excell At Their Craft", never made it past the script conference.
| Quote: |
| If more teachers would refuse these kinds of baby-sitting jobs, then maybe standards would go up as a whole. But then that would mean that they would actually have to teach for a change instead of playing Bingo and hangman. But this would actually be a good thing because then we could at least get rid of the worst riff-raff instead of having to tolerate them. |
You're assuming that entertainment is trumping education because too many teachers would rather be entertainers. But another explanation would be that it's because that's what draws in the students.
These appeals to higher standards would be applicable in a public school, where you've actually got a curriculum set by the education ministry. If a principal asks the teacher to spend the whole day playing hangman, the teacher is well within his rights to point out that this request does not conform with the set curriculum. And even in a public school, the point is not to help the teacher be the best that he can be, but to follow guidelines laid down by government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Homer
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
OTH,
As the myth said, we were hired to be teachers.
It is your responsibility to do so the best of your ability, even in adverse conditions.
If you find that your school does not permit you to teach then move on. This would, in the mid to long run improve the industry.
Coming over and saying that because your boss is bad and the students do not want to learn (newsflash: as a teacher it is your job to generate interest in learning in your students) there is no point in you making an effort is not the solution. In fact it is no better then the bad boss you used as an example. It is no justification at all.
Now in more detail:
| Quote: |
| What obligation does the teacher have to provide a certain standard of education |
That is the basic obligation of any teacher. It the basis of teacher OTH, no matter where you are.
| Quote: |
| The students want you to entertain them. The director wants you to entertain them. So, you entertain them, |
This is not a store where you sell a commodity. Also, entertaining students is part of teaching anywhere. Also, like Myth said, why is entertaining your students not compatible with learning?
There can be a happy medium between the two. If you just sit there and play games at the expense of doing any teaching then you just perpetuate the problem by contributing to it.
| Quote: |
| The only problem I see here is that entertaining students doesn't conform to your lofty notions of what a teacher should do. But the hagwon isn't in operation to increase your sense of self-respect. |
Sorry but you missed the boat on that one OTH.
I never said entertaining the students is not part of a teacher's job (it is very much part of it in any classroom both here and back home). It is no lofty notion my friend, it is the very basics of teaching, which quite obviously is based on the act of teaching.
I do not need anyone or any "operation (business)" to increse my sense of self-respect (whatever that meant). I just see my goal as teaching my students and ensuring they learn. Nothing lofty there, just a sense of professionalism and responsability. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| This is not a store where you sell a commodity. |
Really? I'd be interested to hear why you think an private sector, for-profit hagwon is different from any other private sector, for-profit business.
| Quote: |
Quote:
What obligation does the teacher have to provide a certain standard of education
That is the basic obligation of any teacher. It the basis of teacher OTH, no matter where you are.
|
Okay. And who exactly determines what this standard of education is? Public schools have government guidelines. Who sets the bar in a hagwon? And how do they set it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Homer
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You are missing the point here.
The bar is set by the teacher in his classroom.
As for the difference between a product selling business and a hakwon, it is sad that you cannot or will not see the basic difference.
No one should have to spell it out for you as a teacher. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Homer wrote: |
You are missing the point here.
The bar is set by the teacher in his classroom. |
If the big boss man, the guy who is paying my salary, says I have to wear a red shirt and must avoid using words with a soft "C" sound, then I'm going to be wearing a red shirt and avoiding the use of words with the soft "C" sound.
I can still teach English, I'm just having to do it under clearly established rules. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
A teacher could willingly follow a dress code for the office and still manage a classroom as one sees fit.
| Homer wrote: |
| The bar is set by the teacher in his classroom. |
I agree Homer. If a hagwon doesn't like the way I teach, I could go teach elsewhere and they could find someone else.
The fact is, teachers who assert high standards for themselves have their independence tolerated because they're too valuable to lose and too committed to bend or break.
So, when a student says something I find offensive, I stop it immediately and let them know it's wrong in this classroom. What my director thinks about it is beside the point. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
