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JFK Assassination
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
Several people have suggested that there be a single thread for all the JFK asassination posts. Hopefully, this can be it...


Apparently not.

Oh well. How long do you think it will take for the next "JFK thread" to appear?
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not place all JFK-related info (including RFK and JFK, Jr.) here?
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Why not place all JFK-related info (including RFK and JFK, Jr.) here?

That is a really bad idea. There are reams of information about each one of these cases. Why would you insist on further confounding the issues?

Can't all the anti-conspiracy people confine themselves to one thread? Why do we have to deal with them over and over and over and over and over again?

The "conspiracy" people have limited their threads, the why don't the antis do the same? Why do they get special treatment?

Furthermore, why do they lack the self-control to skip over posts in which they are not interested?
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at those threads again, Bacasper. What kind of response are you getting from them? What does this tell you about how people on this board feel about your "reams of information?"

Stand by. I will bump them again for your convenience.
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Mod Team


Joined: 11 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Look at those threads again, Bacasper. What kind of response are you getting from them? What does this tell you about how people on this board feel about your "reams of information?"

Stand by. I will bump them again for your convenience.



Gopher, you don't have to read his threads. And did you bump regicide's old stuff to make a point? I am very, very busy as are other mods.
Of course, this is our job so to speak. I made a sticky. And if Regicide and Bacasper can work with stickies, I don't mind obliging them. Anyway, don't needlessly provoke them just because you don't like their posts, but I do ask them to ask for perhaps one more sticky that would perhaps help placate them and you somehow, and to where you can not bother them and they post as they see fit.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Enrico Palazzo wrote:
I made a sticky.


I wish you would. I wish you would make three or five stickies. JFK, MLK/RFK, 9/11, and how about one just for "them."

It is a win-win solution: it contains the conspiracy-theorists to their stickies, at least with respect the neverending conspiracy-theory circus here. And it gives them primacy of place, a high-profile position for their threads.


Agree agree. Throw one up for the chupacabre too.
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regicide



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part 2: John McAdams and Judyth Vary Baker

Star Science Student Recruited into Deadly Conspiracy (John McAdams)

McAdams subtly describes me as a ´star science student’ which I was in high school. In college, I was studying pre/med and my activities in that field were known only to my sponsoring doctors and Senator George Smathers. In other words, it leaves the impression that I was recruited into a ´Deadly Conspiracy´ while I was in high school. read the rest of this and decide for yourself:

Judyth's saga begins when she was a student at Manatee High School in Bradenton, Florida. Among fellow students who remember her, opinion is about evenly split between remembering her as "intelligent" and remembering her as "weird," E-mail from Robert Johnson dated July 30, 2003. Johnson contacted several of her former classmates... (John McAdams)

I had several concerned classmates call me saying that they had been contacted by somebody who asked them, "What do you think about this weird woman and her bizarre story" One classmate said she considered Mr. Johnson hostile when she said nice things about me. Did Mr. Johnson only give the people he interviewed two choices? (`weird´ and ‘intelligent’)...how many did he interview? Most of my former classmates who liked me and are still alive never heard from Mr. Johnson. A not too close friend, Martin Overstreet, told The Bradenton Herald in a Nov. 2003 interview that I was ´a very kind person.´ Buddy Grace, another classmate, wrote to say additional nice things. Bob Pope, yet another classmate, said, some kind comments, "while the rest of us were doing science fair projects, Judy was doing science.." Dave Deitrich, an older classmate interviewed by Ed Haslam in Bradenton, had only nice things to say, too, and remembered running into me in the radiation area of the physics and engineering buildings.

THE TRUTH IS THAT I WAS FAIRLY POPULAR, AND HAD A LOT OF FRIENDS. ESPECIALLY, BOYFRIENDS!

My boyfriends, and my cancer research project, took a lot of extra time. My guys would carry my books and lab materials over to the hospital for me, walking two miles with me those days I missed my ride because of a club meeting.

While I was never class president, or one of the voted most popular, I missed being on the Most Popular list by just one vote (if I had voted for myself, I would have made the list!). The high school yearbook shows I was socially active and had a lot of friends. I was on the Prom Committee, for example, and was a National Honor Society Page, the secretary of the science club, and a former vice president of Societas Latina. I was staff artist for the high school newspaper and won an award for fund raising for my class. I was one of five actors in the Sophomore Play, and I had loads of fun with my friends, especially my boyfriends!

she appears to have been an excellent science student who conducted "cancer research" with mice. (John McAdams)

McAdams here places the words CANCER RESEARCH in quotes, as if this is not what HE would call it! But for all that, it was. I presented a paper on my work to the Westinghouse Science Talent Search and won a division prize representing the State of Florida. Drs. Howard Diehl, George Moore and Alton Ochsner personally inspected my cancer research work, which had been conducted under two doctors trained and licensed to handle radiation at Oak Ridge, as well as being under the auspices of half a dozen other doctors and a few retired military officers. I had additional encouragement from Walter Reed Institute’s own Chief Radiologist, Dr. David Jacobus. Now, I was sixteen when being guided by these doctors and scientists.

Dr. Diehl - the Executive National Vice President of Research for the American Cancer Society - actually travelled to Manatee High School to personally assess the value of my work. He was so impressed that he recommended I should work in Dr. Moore’s own lab (Moore was the DIRECTOR of the entire Roswell Park Memorial Institute, one of the finest in the world, and the oldest cancer research facility in the US, in Buffalo). I was given housing, board, and a stipend at the level of a graduate student. I also received numerous full scholarships, and grants from the National Science Foundation, the National Cancer Institute, etc. I was assigned after my summer of cancer research training to do advanced cancer research on melanogenesis, under the guidance of scientists associated with Eli Lily and Roswell Park. I ended up doing two years of cancer research and associated work with radiation, blood component tagging with isotopes, cancerous human tissue cultures, etc. at both St. Francis College and at The University of Florida, where I worked under a special licensure.

I presented a paper to the Indiana Biological Society on melanogenesis, with certification of my work by two nuns, who were scientists-doctors, who accompanied me. The paper was not published because I did not have a degree, but the presentation of the paper was to a full house. McAdams mentions none of this!

She received a fair amount of recognition for her academic prowess (John McAdams)

No, for my cancer research! I had very good grades but cancer research was what I received recognition for - for that, and for inventing an enhanced process for more efficiently claiming magnesium metal from seawater, for which I received an award at the International Science and Engineering Fair in Indianapolis. If you ever watch the film October Skies, you’ll know how fantastic it was for a sixteen year old girl (soon to be 17) to be invited to represent the State of Florida at that time. In fact, the Navy also awarded me six week cruise on a battleship-aircraft carrier... but withdrew it because I was a female! No female had ever won a top award in the Florida State Science Fair in the Physical Sciences Division at that time, who also qualified for the Navy Award in chemistry and physics.

… attending national workshops for science students (John McAdams)

I never attended a ´national workshop for science students. I attended an invitation-only cancer research summer of training that was open to outstanding biochemistry and radiobiology students sponsored by leading doctors in the country. These students ranged from high school to college graduates. There were some high school science teachers also involved, but the vast majority in the training sessions were college graduates. I worked side by side with them, with my own personal cancer research project in helping to develop a better medium to grow melanoma cancer. And I succeeded in creating a medium that advanced the methodology for growing tissue cultures of melanoma. I had to present a paper at Roswell Park on my research. The presentation was considered the best among all the National science Foundation awardees, of whom I was one. There were only 68 of us. And I worked in the Director´s own personal lab. Hardly a ´national workshop for science students’. I came form there able to grow any kind of cancer - with perfected skill - and was given the assignment to try to create ´the most deadly cancers.´ I have several newspaper articles reporting on this ongoing assignment in college for the next two years, with grants from the NSF and the NIH and the ACS. McAdams avoids ever mentioning my advanced training in cancer research.

But her life took an important turn when she came to the attention of Dr. Canute Michaelson in 1958. (John McAdams)

He has this out of sequence. By the time I was trained at Roswell Park and given the deadly cancer assignment as an ongoing project, with reports sent to Roswerll Park and/or The American Cancer Society´s own Dr. Diehl, and to Dr. Alton Ochsner, it was 1961.

In 1958, I was a sophomore with a small private cancer research project on fish. Dr. Michaelson saw the project and made sure my high school got a new science building and equipment. He was connected to the CIA. He was also impressed with some other science students there, not just with me.

Michaelson (supposedly a "CIA asset" engaged in bioweapons research) somehow targeted her for future intelligence use... See for example "Een Amerikaanse held" in De Groene Amsterdammer, June 21, 2003. (John McAdams)

This is ridiculous! What Michaelson did was to introduce me to some military friends of Col. Philip V. Doyel, as well as encouraging my biology teacher, Mrs. McCartney, to allow me space to do research. Hardly sinister! Blackout curtains were ordered and installed so outstanding science students could work late evenings without being noticed. Doyle formed the Science Seminar at the suggestion of David Tracy and David Deitrich, who became friends of mine. They were geniuses. heck, we all tested out as geniuses on their IQ tests most of us were given, so we got this attention, mainly because SPUTNIK had gone up in 1957, and in 1958, scientists were going around hunting for talented young people to encourage them to become scientists.

That was the extent of Michaelson´s involvement - he got me in touch with Oak Ridge scientists and Col. Doyle contacted some doctors trained at Oak Ridge, as well as a few local doctors and scientists involved with the brand new oncology department at Manatee Memorial Hospital. I would spend a lot of hours there.

McAdams quotes from a Dutch interview where the Dutchman has to interpret my English story. He didn’t quite understand how Michaelson was involved. When I tried to correct McAdams about the real utility of my connection with Michaelson, which had to do with connecting me to Oak Ridge, but certainly with nothing sinister, he DID change the passage somewhat., Before this, McAdams stated that Michaelson lured me into a plot to kill Fidel Castro! Imagine that! In 1958, when Castro wasn’t yet in power, no less!
McAdams, having linked me through Michaelson with the Fidel Castro plot, just had to keep embroidering this brief association, even after being corrected... so he now writes:

She was thus drawn into the orbit of very sinister people and eventually into a plot that had the intention of killing Castro, but ended up killing JFK instead. (John McAdams)

McAdams cleverly injects the words’ "very sinister people" so that readers will think I must be paranoid or something! You have already read that I was placed in contact with legitimate doctors and scientists, as well as gaining the attention and kind support of retired military officers, who helped rise money to build a brand new science building, thanks also to our high school principal, who coordinated that effort. Is that SINISTER? Only in McAdams’ version, not mine!

The "interesting" time in her life was the summer of 1963, when she was in New Orleans. (John McAdams)

McAdams fails to mention two years of college...by cramming into summer sessions as well.... where I continued to work in cancer research and related projects while auditing pre-med classes and generating grants for the University of Florida, which was at that time rapidly expanding its science departments. McAdams thus makes it seem I went straight from a science summer camp to New Orleans, insofar as training is concerned. he never mentions that I was assigned to try to create "the most deadly cancers." But I digress. Let’s see what additional tales McAdams decides to spin his own peculiar way:

It was there that she began, she claims, a torrid sexual affair with Lee Harvey Oswald, in spite of having been recently married to Robert Baker, a student and future petroleum geologist who was working for an oil company. (John McAdams)

In fact, in New Orleans, I met and fell in love with Lee Harvey Oswald, and after a period of considerable contemplation and thought, he and I commenced a love affair. Sex was far from the only reason we fell in love. I resembled Marina Oswald (McAdams does not mention this here) and both of us were unhappily married. I, in fact, was married ´on the fly’ to a guy who promptly vanished, taking a job out in the Gulf of Mexico deliberately, as his letter to potential employers asked that he be given FIELD WORK! I didn’t know this until recently, when I read the back of one of his letters, where his inquiry letter was printed, possibly accidentally, since Robert was a frugal man who used leftover paper to write his letters on. Lee and I never intended to cheat on our mates, but we couldn’t help ourselves. One thing McAdams fails to mention, as well: I had learned to speak and read some Russian, and had intensively studied Russian classical music and literature. Lee loved these things very much, and we had this in common right from the start.

What brought Judyth and Lee together was a plot, centred in New Orleans, to produce a bio weapon for the purpose of killing Fidel Castro. (John McAdams)

Not so. What brought us together was a mistake. I came two weeks earlier than I was supposed to, to New Orleans, having been offered another summer of research, this time under Dr. Mary Sherman in Ochsner´s Foundation Clinic. Both Ochsner and Sherman were out of town, but I was mistaken for the person who was going to be sent to help Dave Ferrie with the clandestine side of that project. Lee Osweald either ran into me accidentally, or, now that I have hindsight, Dave Ferrie was asked to check on me, by Ochsner, when I arrived early (it was a dangerous city and I was alone). Ferrie concluded I was the promised helper and told me elements of the project before Ochsner or Sherman could stop him. I had dated anti-Castroites and was from Florida, fresh from the Cuban Missile Crisis, and was perfectly willing to cooperate in such a project. Anything to eliminate the man I was told was the equivalent of Osama B. L.

In the end, I became embroiled in the project. But the attraction Lee and I had for each other had nothing to do with any plot. In fact, Lee recruited me to help him keep his cover job intact at Reily. More details are in the book. It is complex, but McAdams manages to mess up everything in just a sentence or two. His oversimplification resembles, "And God created the heavens and the earth" to represent all of the history of the world. He woefully oversimplifies the matter. Then, of course, it is shocking and unbelievable. I can hardly recognize myself in McAdams’ version.

The plotters got them both "cover" jobs at the Reily Coffee Company while they were carrying on an affair and trying to produce a "cocktail" to administer to Castro. (John McAdams)

No. Error, once again. Lee had come to New Orleans to work on something entirely different, and the work I did at Reily had to do with keeping Lee´s job covered. The job was flexible enough that I could still work on the project at Dave Ferrie’s apartment, which was empty during the day. Materials and mice, etc., were hauled in and out by two Cuban teens under Ferrie´s control. My position was minimum wage because I did not work there fulltime, but it was on a salary. Near the end, I received some ´overtime’ due to Lee´s intervention, all of which is explained in the book in detail.

McAdams says that we were "carrying on an affair" when the "plotters" got us the "cover jobs." His version is a mess. Lee was working for Guy Banister at this time. We were very attracted to each other but were not having an affair at this time. NOR WERE WE TRYING TO PRODUCE A ´COCKTAIL´TO ADMINISTER TO CASTRO. This ´cocktail’ is Dr. Platzman´s description in shorthand for a complex project. I was involved in accelerating the progress of the deadly cancer part of the project. Others were involved in other aspects. The final administering of the product would be in the hands of Cubans, not Americans. This would free the US of any blame.

The "cocktail" would include both a virus designed to knock out Castro's immune system, and cancer cells that would infect him and cause his death. (John McAdams)

Needless to say, the description given here is laughably inadequate. I must stop here. There is much, much more to say. But I do hope that here, we have a beginning in the matter of correcting the web pages, filled with error, that McAdams manages to have come up FIRST at Google if my name is plugged in for a search. Something has to be done to correct this. I am in the process of moving and will have to stop here, but please visit Black Op Radio and listen to the interview there to get more information. And if you can, find a copy of "The Love Affair" to get a better, if still over/condensed, picture of what was going on.

I will try in a month or two to continue the exposure of the sorry piece of ´research. John McAdams has offered to ´explain’ my story. His method is to slip in words that prejudice the reader, to ignore or oversimplify my attainments, and to make sure that I sound unlikeable and without ethics. Fir example, he fails to mention that the reason I left St. Francis and was transferred to University of Florida was because my parents were upset when I decided to become a nun. McAdams mentions the developing relationship between Lee and me as a "torrid sexual affair" even though, mad in love as we were, we tried for some time to save our respective marriages.

I hope that this partial review of McAdams´ website about me will give everyone a better perspective on the truth.


Last edited by regicide on Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jandar



Joined: 11 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this a discussion about the TOS?
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regicide



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jandar wrote:
Is this a discussion about the TOS?



You are right, let's get back to discussing the assassination.


Early Critics

However, a small group of private citizens read not only the Warren Report but also the 26 volumes of published testimony and evidence upon which it was supposedly based. What they found was a host of contradictions, implausibilities, and stories which never made it into the 888-page report.

Many witnesses had heard gunfire emanating from the grassy knoll to the right front of the motorcade, whereas Oswald was allegedly in a sixth floor window behind the President. Indeed one policer officer had rushed up the hill and confronted a man behind the fence, who then identified himself as Secret Service and flashed a badge. The problem, as the Warren Commission uncovered, was that all Secret Service agents were accounted for and none were in that area.

Many important matters - credible questions about evidence tampering, misidentification of the rifle and handling of other items found in the "sniper's nest," how Oswald's description happened to be sent out on police radio, how Oswald managed to teach himself Russian, defect to the Soviet Union, and return with State Dept. money, the handling of the "Odio Incident," and many more - raised questions which the Commission didn't adequately address. Some issues, like differing descriptions of wounds reported in Dallas (originating from the front) and Bethesda (originating from behind) were "resolved" though tortuous leading questions designed to elicit a particular answer. In general, it appeared to the early critics that the Commission had made its mind up early and molded the evidence and its investigation to fit a pre-ordained outcome.


Mark Lane.Speeches by Mark Lane and early essays were followed by a crop of books in 1965-67 critical of the Warren Commission. These included Harold Weisberg's Whitewash, Sylvia Meagher's Accessories After the Fact, Edward Epstein's Inquest, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas, among others.

A particular focus was the Commission's recreation of the shooting. With the Zapruder film as a "clock" of the assassination, and a bolt-action rifle that the FBI determined could only be fired every 2.3 seconds even without careful aiming, the Commission was forced to explain how Governor Connally could have been wounded so soon after JFK. This necessitated the creation of the "single bullet theory," which posited that both men were hit by the same bullet, and Connally suffered a delayed reaction despite having a rib broken and wrist smashed. Even more incredible, the bullet assigned to this task was Commission Exhibit 399, a "magic" bullet featuring nary a nick that had been mysteriously found on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital an hour or so after the shooting.


CE 399, the
"magic bullet."The unbelievability of the single bullet theory, along with many other questions that critics raised about Oswald, Ruby, the Dallas police, and more, caused the public to question the Warren Commission's findings. By 1967, publications such as Life Magazine and the Saturday Evening Post were questioning the Commission's conclusions and raising the idea of a new investigation. Then came New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison.

Source:


http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/JFK_Assassination
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pardon me for saying, but wouldn't someone have had to read tons and tons of material regarding the conspiracy theories regarding this assassination? I don't think most of us have the requisite background for that. At least, I don't. It would require interested parties to research and debate.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:49 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
Pardon me for saying, but wouldn't someone have had to read tons and tons of material regarding the conspiracy theories regarding this assassination? I don't think most of us have the requisite background for that. At least, I don't. It would require interested parties to research and debate.


Then don't post on these threads. Idea
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Cheonmunka



Joined: 04 Jun 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://jfkhistory.com/k/answers.html

Oswald's bolt-action rifle that didn't fire all the shots within the timeframes of the shooting that day.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think an even bigger trick than firing the shots in the alleged time frame is getting ammunition for the Mannlicher Carcano rifle, ammunition that had not been manufactured since 1945.

Last edited by bacasper on Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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contrarian



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can buy ammo for the Mannlicher Carcano by mail order. Easy as pie.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would that be this?

Prvi Partizan Ammunition 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano 123 Grain Soft Point Box of 20

If so, I guess it is not such a trick after all.
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