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Affirmative Consent in California
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Affirmative Consent in California Reply with quote

"The bill defines consent to sex as the presence of a ‘yes’ rather than the absence of a ‘no,’ a cultural shift that victim’s groups have long advocated....

"Critics of affirmative consent policies often point to an unrealistic set of standards set in 1991 by Antioch University in Ohio, which required verbal consent (excluding ‘moans’) for ‘each new level’ of sexual activity—a standard that doesn’t reflect the real interactions between human beings during sex....

“Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time.”
http://time.com/3211938/campus-sexual-assault-consent-california/

So affirmative consent has to be ongoing.... So the woman has to keep saying “yes” throughout any sexual activity or it is rape?
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, according to this standard, I'm a rape "survivor" myself, which should be enough on its own to illustrate how completely ridiculous this standard is. Glad I managed to get through university before this all got out of control. Rape should be dealt with through the court system, not by extra-judicial university witch hunts.

Kepler wrote:
So the woman has to keep saying “yes” throughout any sexual activity or it is rape?


The language seems to imply that both the man and the woman have to repeatedly affirm consent, but realistically I doubt any women are going to be called to task, for the same reason that domestic violence is seen as a "male" thing despite the fact that it's not uncommon for females to engage in it either.
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augustine



Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice. The worst part of feminism these days is this male feminist poon scam. Though, I'd wager that the schlub who proposed this one was a white guy whose daughter went to UCSB and came back to Palo Alto after the first quarter looking like she'd been put through a sausage grinder. California is a different kind of place, it's the end of the world. I'll never forget when my living room went from a meth-bulb party, to a high school girlfriend sex tape showing, to a blowbang. Good times.

What this made me think of was a guy I used to know there who was dating a 17 year old girl when he was 19 iirc, who said his girlfriend's dad took her diary where she described sleeping with him, and used it to have him successfully prosecuted as a sex offender. I'd like to think he eventually had that cleared, but at the time he said it was a for life thing. He seemed like a harmless guy, but said he got hit pretty hard, had a probation officer and had to go to sex offender meetings, stuff like that. Anyway, it doesn't sound like the situation has improved much.
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radcon



Joined: 23 May 2011

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does this mean deaf/mute people can't legally have non rape-free sex?
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

radcon wrote:
So does this mean deaf/mute people can't legally have non rape-free sex?


Presumably they could repeatedly sign "yes" over and over. Or write it on a slate or something.
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“The flipped dynamic is what concerns critics of SB 967. Under an affirmative consent standard, sexual activity is sexual assault unless the accused can prove that the accusing party consciously and voluntarily agreed to engage in sexual activity. Moreover, the accused student must prove that the consent was ongoing, said Cohn, with the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/03/living/affirmative-consent-school-policy/?c=&page=6

So sex is rape by default unless the accused can prove otherwise.... It is shocking that the California State Senate voted unanimously in favor of this.
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yodanole



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Signed, notarized statements, witnesses and videos ....
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radcon



Joined: 23 May 2011

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate how due to feminism the term "survivor" has replaced the more appropriate term "victim" in cases of rape. Last spring I was following a rape case at my former university that had some interest for me. There was some doubt as to whether a rape took place so the news stories kept referring to the girl as the "alleged survivor." "Alleged survivor?" Just freakin absurd use of language. Either she survived or she didn't. Was someone alleging that she didn't survive? I commented on this at the bottom of the story in the student rag, and surprise surprise, my comments were deleted over and over.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

radcon wrote:
There was some doubt as to whether a rape took place so the news stories kept referring to the girl as the "alleged survivor." "Alleged survivor?" Just freakin absurd use of language.


I suppose just as we have "Cogito ergo sum," we can have, "Arguo ergo supervixi." Just by alleging, she's proven her case! I say it in jest, but let's be frank, that's the real desired standard here, at least vis a vis campus incidents. Actual incidents of rape should of course be referred to the police, as with all crimes.
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littlelisa



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
radcon wrote:
There was some doubt as to whether a rape took place so the news stories kept referring to the girl as the "alleged survivor." "Alleged survivor?" Just freakin absurd use of language.


I suppose just as we have "Cogito ergo sum," we can have, "Arguo ergo supervixi." Just by alleging, she's proven her case! I say it in jest, but let's be frank, that's the real desired standard here, at least vis a vis campus incidents. Actual incidents of rape should of course be referred to the police, as with all crimes.


The percentage of false accusations are very low. On the other hand, when victims DO go to the police, often it's a terrible experience (especially for someone already going through a lot of difficulty) and nothing much gets done. It definitely shouldn't be a "X said it therefore it's true without question", but it does need to be taken much more seriously than it is. In many cases, there is victim-blaming (what were they wearing, what were they doing, why didn't they ...) and shaming, and very VERY often, the person is not believed or is doubted. It's really not an easy thing to come forward with these kinds of accusations.

When crimes are reported, they need to be taken seriously and police and others who deal with these incidents need to be trained on how to deal with it properly. It's all easy to say that rape victims should all go to the police and BOOM justice will be done. I wonder why more people don't? (Please read the whole thing)-->http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/articles/2014/5/19/why-college-rapevictimsdonatgotothepolice.html

I read through this thread and it's clear that everyone posting in here is a guy. You know it seems fewer and fewer women comment on this board anymore, but I think this is a real case of blindness due to male privilege. Luckily I have never been raped. But how come I know already so much about what a terrible experience it is for the vast majority of people to go to the police (or other groups, such as a college board) and report a rape, and you guys either have no idea, or forget or ignore the hassles?

Yes, even one false accusation can be devastating. But you know what, so is rape, and going through that and then not being believed and being accused of false accusations, being asked if you want to ruin your rapist's life, and having to recount the same terrible story over and over and being judged for it... that seems equally as bad. So clearly it's a bit more complex than "well, more people should just report it to the police". Given the hassles of reporting or talking about rape, the low percentage of false accusations, at least our immediate reaction shouldn't be one of doubt when someone tells you about rape, or when you hear of someone who said they were raped.

A lot of people who have raped someone hide behind the idea of "well, she never said no". This includes people who were too drunk to consent, people who were passed out, people who are pressured into things and afraid to say no. So having positive consent, and a clear idea of "Yes, I want to have sex" seems like a huge step forward. If you are having sex with someone who doesn't visibly want it as much as you do or says as much out loud.. well... I think there should absolutely be clarity first before anything.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

littlelisa wrote:

The percentage of false accusations are very low.


I don't know that. You don't actually know it either. Perhaps more importantly, the percentage of false accusations has absolutely zero bearing on whether any particular accusation is false.

littlelisa wrote:
On the other hand, when victims DO go to the police, often it's a terrible experience (especially for someone already going through a lot of difficulty) and nothing much gets done. It definitely shouldn't be a "X said it therefore it's true without question", but it does need to be taken much more seriously than it is. In many cases, there is victim-blaming (what were they wearing, what were they doing, why didn't they ...) and shaming, and very VERY often, the person is not believed or is doubted. It's really not an easy thing to come forward with these kinds of accusations.


Rape should be treated no differently than any other crime, and held to the exact same standards of justice. Does this mean that at times the police need to perhaps treat it more seriously than they do? On a case-by-case basis, perhaps yes. But no matter what, it's always going to be a difficult to prosecute crime, which is why it's so especially important for women to take measures to protect themselves from it before it happens. The fact that advice which could help towards such end is often dismissed as "shaming" or "victim-blaming" is problematic in its own right. I read recently about a kind of fingernail polish which can help detect date-rape drugs for example. Sounds beneficial to me, but anti-rape activists weren't so pleased. That's the kind of foolishness which makes this topic insufferable.

littlelisa wrote:
It's all easy to say that rape victims should all go to the police and BOOM justice will be done.


There is no crime in the world where one merely needs to go to the police and "BOOM justice will be done." One can see how nuanced and complicated the criminal justice process is through the lens of any number of crimes just by glancing at the media. I understand that the emotional pain of rape can make it difficult for a woman to go through that nuanced and complex process, but the answer is not to turn our universities into extra-legal sex crimes tribunals which presume guilt.

littlelisa wrote:
I read through this thread and it's clear that everyone posting in here is a guy. You know it seems fewer and fewer women comment on this board anymore ...


Anymore? No, few women have ever posted here. Which of course had the pleasant benefit of me rarely having to hear phrases like, "...but I think this is a real case of blindness due to male privilege."

littlelisa wrote:
But how come I know already so much about what a terrible experience it is for the vast majority of people to go to the police (or other groups, such as a college board) and report a rape, and you guys either have no idea, or forget or ignore the hassles?


"Oh, reporting rape is an awful hassle, so let's just abandon all sound principles of justice and create a witch hunt atmosphere."

littlelisa wrote:

A lot of people who have raped someone hide behind the idea of "well, she never said no". This includes people who were too drunk to consent, people who were passed out, people who are pressured into things and afraid to say no. So having positive consent, and a clear idea of "Yes, I want to have sex" seems like a huge step forward.


Under the standard of affirmative consent, any woman who has slept with an intoxicated man is a rapist. Like I said, my wife is a rapist under this standard. So are most college-aged women and men. It's mind-numbingly foolish, a highlight of the ideological extremes which arise under one-party rule.

Rape is a serious crime worthy of being treated seriously within the bounds of sound principles of criminal justice. That's a reasonable, fair position, and I do not believe you have either the facts or the rhetorical skill to budge me from it.
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Kepler



Joined: 24 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems like a gross violation of due process rights. For every other crime including murder the accused is entitled to a fair trial and assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. Now some people want to change the rules for those accused of rape. I suppose universities could teach women to take precautions against being raped. However, that could be interpreted as “blaming the victim” so it wouldn't be the politically correct way to handle the situation.
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FriendlyDaegu



Joined: 26 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

littlelisa wrote:
If you are having sex with someone who doesn't visibly want it as much as you do or says as much out loud..


Story of my life..

littlelisa wrote:
Luckily I have never been raped.


Under the new rules, only prudes have never been raped.

littlelisa wrote:
…everyone posting in here is a guy…


… who has been raped. I think we have more right to discuss the issue than you. But no one is telling you to go somewhere and shove it.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets call it what it is. At its core its a way for women get revenge for giving a guy sex and he acts an ass after.

The laws alread on the books, the modern science of dna, etc. is more than enough to validate proof of rape. Law enforcement, hospitals, etc. have looked at hundreds of thousands, millions even of rape cases. They know what rape is. They know the physical, mental, etc. of a rape victim...er...survivor and the assailant.

There is a legal remedy already and this is overkill. If we are going to have this definition on the books and if it is so, then I raped my present girlfriend by this defininition, since she said "I shouldn't, you're awful" while nibbling on her...er....I'll stop there....then we should legalize prostitution. And I would encourage all men to videotape their sexual encouters as an insurance policy against prosecution if you piss her off.
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
Lets call it what it is. At its core its a way for women get revenge for giving a guy sex and he acts an ass after.


Basically. It's also part of a larger societal pattern in the USA; tactics to keep men down and thus keep them under control. These nonsense rules are always executed under the disguise of "protecting women" and "advancing women's rights". Rolling Eyes
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