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Friggin Conscription Happens during the Final!
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Mankind



Joined: 18 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
well, guys know well in advance if they have to go for the physical.


Actually a lot do not know when they are leaving. SOme guys plan ahead of when to join, and are aware of when they need to go for physicals and when to show up. Others however (Pre IMF this problem did not occur that much) find out from their parents that money is tight, and suddnely join, because school is too expensive. Other factors that add to ths problem are, forcast for employment rates (parents watch this) and figuring out that their best friends are signing up. They don't want to be lonely. Breaking up with girlfriends is also popular sudden motivation.

I would encourage you to take it easy on them. Judge them by what kind of person and student they were when you had them. If they were an idiot, than don't bust your but for them, but if they were an ok kid, cut them a break and use their midterm for their final grade too.

Also lots of students who are going off to the military and plan in advance take off a lot to spend time with their friends before they go. Talk to these guys about it. Let them take the exam early or a few days after when you're in your office. They are about to say good-bye to everything they know for the next 2 years, cut them a little slack once in a while.

Remember a good teacher meets the needs of their students. THey don't force the students to meet the wants of the teacher.

HAND Smile
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Mr. Kalgukshi



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Location: Here or on the International Job Forums

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:40 pm    Post subject: Nothing Reply with quote

Mankind wrote a lot of sensible advice which included the following:

"They are about to say good-bye to everything they know for the next 2 years, cut them a little slack once in a while.

Remember a good teacher meets the needs of their students. THey don't force the students to meet the wants of the teacher."

_______________________________

To which, Mr. Kalgukshi would add: Nothing.
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J.B. Clamence



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mankind wrote:
Actually a lot do not know when they are leaving. SOme guys plan ahead of when to join, and are aware of when they need to go for physicals and when to show up. Others however (Pre IMF this problem did not occur that much) find out from their parents that money is tight, and suddnely join, because school is too expensive. Other factors that add to ths problem are, forcast for employment rates (parents watch this) and figuring out that their best friends are signing up. They don't want to be lonely. Breaking up with girlfriends is also popular sudden motivation.


Do a lot of students voluntarily go to the army? I always thought that the vast majority did it only because it is mandatory. Do they get to choose when they go?
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merrilee



Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:28 pm    Post subject: silly ass-umptions... Reply with quote

Austin,

I never stated I was against work-study programs. What I did say is that I follow the university's rules (which incidentally includes excusing working students).

And are you kidding? There is always a choice. Sometimes the "right" choice is clearer than others, but there is always a choice.

I agree that there are always exceptions to the rules, and I make an exception for any student willing to at least make the effort to talk with me. As I previously stated, I think flexibility is necessary, but there is a difference between being flexible and being ridiculous.

As for your crack against UT... Okay, if UT shouldn't be used to reference a standard of quality, then by the same token, we can say that even mediocre (though I don't agree with that description) American universitites insitute more stringent policies than those in Korea.
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Austin



Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:06 am    Post subject: I digress... Reply with quote

If you were following the thread, you would have noticed that a few of the beginning posts were condemning work-study programs. To be fair, I believe that many of the negative feelings that they expressed, had more to do with their lack of understanding of the Korean system than with actually being against work-study programs.

Admittedly, these young kids do always have choices. I was just simply detailing why so many of them automatically enter university without any clear direction.

Is it reasonable to expect them to be motivated their freshman year?

By your comments, I take it that you believe that my university policies of old were ridiculous. I take that as a compliment. What more needs to be said?

No need to compare Korea to UT!

See ya later.
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Kyrei



Joined: 22 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:02 am    Post subject: On a slightly different note: Phys. Ed. Students Reply with quote

If I missed this point in a previous posting, please be kind to me when you point it out.

I have an issue with one student in the Phys. Ed. Department. He is on the Equestrian team at my university (and yes - WOW - they have one). His English is pretty good, but he has only made it to class three times this semester, and two of those times he arrived over an hour late. He has given me no classwork at all - one assignment he did hand in was a series of pages from the internet cut & pasted and handed in as "his own". Those of you who work in universities are of course aware of the huge plagiarism issue that goes on, but this was extreme - it was supposed to be a report for his mid-term grade. He says to me today that he only wants a C or C+ and that I should give it to him because he cannot attend (due to competitions) and is therefore unable to keep up the work.

My response is this: You want me to bend the rules just for you, but are not willing to put forth the least amount of effort to even pretend to earn the grade. I have no doubt that if he attended and did the work, he would earn a B+ or A, but he has done neither. I'm thinking 'F' and take it again another time when you are a little more serious about studying. In his own words, all he wants to do is ride his horse, not be a teacher or anything so he just needs to pass. If I hand him a C (or even a D for that matter) for doing nothing I can not in good conscience give anyone else a grade lower than that if they attended and at least tried to do something, even if it is incomprehensible.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Kyrei
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merrilee



Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kyrei,

State your position to him and present him an alternative assignment to "earn" the C, and explain that your concern is to be fair to the other students. Make the assignment slightly challenging but doable.

(That's what I'd do).
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J.B. Clamence



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: On a slightly different note: Phys. Ed. Students Reply with quote

Kyrei:

I'm teaching a class full of phys. ed. students this semester, and they just blow me away with their behavior and attitude, even by Korean standards. In three weeks time, I'm gonna be handing out the F's like candy canes.

As for your student, is attendance mandatory in your class? Did he do really poorly on his tests/exams? If the answer is yes to both, I would just fail his sorry ass. For me, that would be a no brainer. I don't care how good someone's English is: if they treat my class like a joke, the laughter stops at week 16. That's one my unwritten mottos.
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Mankind



Joined: 18 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do they get to choose when they go?


Ya. They have to report by a certain age (30 I think). Most do it before 25 so that they 'fit in' better.

HAND Smile
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kiwiboy_nz_99



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Korea does not have a monopoly on "university education" being a joke. Take a look at the students that are coming out of university in Canada, the U.S., the U.K., etc.!

I'm going to be quite brief and blunt with you this time, as you simply don't know what you're talking about, and therefore are not worth the effort. For a start, you have no idea about the standard of people coming out of the UK, you're just guessing and hoping people won't call you on it. Next, a degree from a western uni is harder to get than one in the same subject from a Korean uni. In a western uni you can't just go up to your teacher and say "I need at leasts a b+ to pass my course, could you raise my grade please?"

Quote:
Admittedly, it is quite amusing to read about the people that are condemning the quality of Korean university education, especially since they have been employed to "teach" and are not even quite sure how to fulfill that obligation.

You have no idea how any one else teaches. Are you an education standards inspector? Simply put, again, you don't know what you're talking about. Let's do that again in a slightly different way for clarity. You said "(people writing here) are not even quite sure how to fulfill the obligation (of teaching )" I said " You don't know that and have no evidence to support that claim. So, one more time, you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
Freshman year in the U.S. is full of the same kinds of behavior that you find here in Korea. Give a shout to one of your former professors, and I am sure they will remind you from whence you came.

No it's not. Freshmen in the states can not negotiate with teachers about their grade after the exams. Freshmen in the states are graded according to absolute standards, while many courses in Korea are "norm referenced" or "bell curved".

Quote:
Why would one object to students beginning to work outside the classroom?

Because it takes away from class time. They have a life time of work ahead of them, but only one chance at uni to get some education.

Quote:
Do you seriously believe that attending class is more important than their position (especially in the tight job market)?

Yes, they can look for a job when they finnish uni. The job market in the west is also tight, and graduates get work. They don't, however, ask for concessions from their uni. They wait till after graduation to begin job interviews, and there doesn't seem to be a problem with that.

Quote:
How can the notion of "being strict" equate to your students actually "benefitting" from your class?

In so many ways that it's quite rediculous for you to say this. People need to be held to standards, in life and in work. I could go on and on, but you're simply not worth it.

Hope you're glad to see me back Austin, get used to having your bull shredded regularly.
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Mr. Kalgukshi



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Location: Here or on the International Job Forums

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:51 pm    Post subject: Kind of Busy So I'll Keep It Short Reply with quote

kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote:

"No it's not. Freshmen in the states can not negotiate with teachers about their grade after the exams. Freshmen in the states are graded according to absolute standards, while many courses in Korea are "norm referenced" or "bell curved".

Mr. K writes: Might you entertain the possibility there are exceptions to what you believe is true?

99 wrote: "Because it takes away from class time. They have a life time of work ahead of them, but only one chance at uni to get some education."

Mr. K writes: Have you ever studied the history of the development of the junior/community colleges in the U.S.? Why they came into existence and the reasons they are still so popular? The concept has been extended to four year universities and grad schools.

99 wrote: Yes, they can look for a job when they finnish uni. The job market in the west is also tight, and graduates get work. They don't, however, ask for concessions from their uni. They wait till after graduation to begin job interviews, and there doesn't seem to be a problem with that."

Mr. K writes: Have you ever heard of Job Placement Services on U.S. campuses and scheduling of interviews prior to graduation? How about internships and work-study programs? How about p/t students working and studying?

99 wrote:"Hope you're glad to see me back Austin, get used to having your bull shredded regularly.

Mr. K writes: Exactly whose bull is being shredded?
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Kwangjuchicken



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having a "bit" of experience Wink 17 years teaching experience in the USA about equally divided between community colleges and universities, and 5 years in Korea (2 in one college, 2 in another college, and one in a university) I would like to make a statement about the difference between work study in The USA and in Korea. The difference is the STUDY part. In the USA, a student who is in work study is required to write papers, and / or take exams etc. They must do something in order to pass the course....and the more they do, the higher the grade. HOWEVER, in Korea, work study completely forgets about the "study" part. At the beginning of a, semester a student who has a job goes around to all his or her professors (foreign and Korean) to get their signature on a paper. That is the last you EVER hear from 90% of them. They do nothing and often get A+'s from the Korean professors. Foreign teachers are often told to leave that grade a blank on the grade sheet and then later, by magic (the secretary) Wink adds the grade. Sometimes we are told to give a B, or a C, NEVER an F. Makes no difference really what we give. The grade will be "changed if needed.
Also, if you look at the educational stats. in the USA, you will see what percent of freshman fail the first year and what percent of students actually graduate. Many colleges and universities in the USA have 10% or more of their Freshman "FLUNK OUT" and then eventually the actual matriculation rate for many schools is 70--80%.
HOWEVER, in Korea we are ORDERED to NEVER give an "F". And even if we do, it will be changed. Then, in such a system as here, 0% of Freshman will flunk out, and 100% will graduate.
AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. I know. I am here. I have been here for 5 years. I see it all the time. Thus, for thoses of you who think the system here is the same as in, at least, the USA, WAKE UP Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked .
IT IS NOT THE SAME Shocked Shocked Shocked
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katydid



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Location: Here kitty kitty kitty...

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it really so similar back home in the States? Speaking as a former work study student, I managed to work 20 hours a week and not miss class. Am I special? No, but I could keep my priorities straight, as I was no longer 12.
These students who have to work so much should schedule their classes accordingly to accomodate both work and study. It's a work-study program they are in, not a work-work program.
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J.B. Clamence



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

katydid wrote:
These students who have to work so much should schedule their classes accordingly to accomodate both work and study. It's a work-study program they are in, not a work-work program.


I don't know about the majority of the students in Korea, but here at my university (and I was under the impression that it was these types of students whom we've been discussing in this thread), are not the same as work-study students back home. Here, some students decide to enter the full-time, career-oriented job market a few months before they actually graduate. They end up getting full-time, 9-5 jobs, sometimes in another city, making it impossible for them to attend classes during their last semester of school. So common practice in Korea is that these students are simply given a free pass in all of their classes, allowing them to graduate after doing nothing during their final semester. This isn't the same as work-study, where students work part-time to put themselves through school. These Korean students just want to leave school a semester early to start their careers.

In the U.S., a student who wanted to do this would be told to wait until after graduation to get a job. I guess that's just too much to ask of students here.
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Mr. Kalgukshi



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Location: Here or on the International Job Forums

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:37 pm    Post subject: Yes Reply with quote

J.B. Clamence wrote:

"In the U.S., a student who wanted to do this would be told to wait until after graduation to get a job. I guess that's just too much to ask of students here."

____________________________

Yes, it's very true. Korea is not the U.S.A. The U.S.A. is not Korea. The rules are different. So are the players. So are the officials. Foreign players must follow the in-country rules. It does require changing one's way of thinking, at least for as long as you are playing in their league.
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