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Transgender Surgery
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Who's Your Daddy?



Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: The joy's in the ride.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Transgender Surgery Reply with quote

This article is very interesting.

"Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution" by Paul McHugh in the WSJ

http://tinyurl.com/nfngtmz

When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings.

A 2011 ...Karolinska Institute in Sweden...long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population.

==
In our PC-world we aren't supposed to judge those getting transgender surgery, but I've always thought they're probably mentally ill.
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Sesame



Joined: 16 Mar 2014

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Transgender Surgery Reply with quote

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
This article is very interesting.

"Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution" by Paul McHugh in the WSJ

http://tinyurl.com/nfngtmz

When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings.

A 2011 ...Karolinska Institute in Sweden...long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population.

==
In our PC-world we aren't supposed to judge those getting transgender surgery, but I've always thought they're probably mentally ill.

The mental frustration is what they get. They're idiots and deserve every bit of anguish they go through for undergoing such a moronic surgery procedure.
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FriendlyDaegu



Joined: 26 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:53 am    Post subject: Re: Transgender Surgery Reply with quote

Sesame wrote:
They're idiots and deserve every bit of anguish they go through for undergoing such a moronic surgery procedure.


Jeez, strong feelings you have about these people. Interested to hear why they're idiots and moronic. Here's my take:

Something I've learned is how many people are born with (what I consider) physical sexual abnormality. Boys and girls who have both sets of organs. Boys who have some boy parts but also a vagina, girls who have a *beep*. Malformed parts and abnormally sized parts. It runs the gamut. Most of the time surgery is performed on the infants, choosing a sex to go with. Sometimes they make the wrong call. It just proves that our DNA is far from perfect and our brain-gender and physical sex don't always match. It doesn't surprise me that some boys grow up feeling female and want surgery to match. They got screwed-up DNA, it sucks for them and sucks for us as a species to have to deal with it. So they want to change their appearance or sexual functionality. People are driven to do all kinds of crazy things. What drives them? Biology, psychology, society. Not stupidity.

Who's Your Daddy? wrote:
…but I've always thought they're probably mentally ill.


If you want to include the transgender condition in your definition of mental illness, it doesn't bother me much. Maybe I'd even agree.. I haven't thought about it much. Anyway, where does that get us? The mentally ill still need to undergo treatment, sometimes surgery, to get better. I don't see your point, other than sticking an ugly label on them.
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trueblue



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When children who reported transgender feelings



Did this exist amongst children 60 years ago?
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Sector7G



Joined: 24 May 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Transgender Surgery Reply with quote

FriendlyDaegu wrote:

Something I've learned is how many people are born with (what I consider) physical sexual abnormality. Boys and girls who have both sets of organs. Boys who have some boy parts but also a vagina, girls who have a *beep*. Malformed parts and abnormally sized parts. It runs the gamut. Most of the time surgery is performed on the infants, choosing a sex to go with. Sometimes they make the wrong call. It just proves that our DNA is far from perfect and our brain-gender and physical sex don't always match. It doesn't surprise me that some boys grow up feeling female and want surgery to match. They got screwed-up DNA, it sucks for them and sucks for us as a species to have to deal with it. So they want to change their appearance or sexual functionality. People are driven to do all kinds of crazy things. What drives them? Biology, psychology, society. Not stupidity.
That's pretty much my take as well, especially for those who feel so strongly they are compelled to get sex-reassignment surgery. But aren't they usually required to be evaluated by mental health professionals before surgery.
http://www.savaperovic.com/gender-reassignment-psychiatric-evaluation.htm
On a separate, but related topic, I used to wonder why Thailand seemed to have so many more trans people than other countries, but from what I have read it is because there is not such a stigma attached to it as it is more culturally tolerated, if not accepted.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im pretty sure being gay and confused has been around a lot longer than 60 years...
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FriendlyDaegu



Joined: 26 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trueblue wrote:


Did this exist amongst children 60 years ago?


Of course. J. Edgar Hoover is a famous example.
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FriendlyDaegu wrote:
trueblue wrote:


Did this exist amongst children 60 years ago?


Of course. J. Edgar Hoover is a famous example.

'Sucking it up like a Hoover Deluxe.'
Odd how well that expression works there.
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Mr. BlackCat



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul McHugh, the author of this article, is a extremely Conservative Catholic. That doesn't necessarily make what he says irrelevant, but if you're going to frame the other side as PC radicals, I don't see why taking the word of another radical is somehow better.

So let's look at what kind of person Paul McHugh is. When the Catholic sex abuse scandal broke out last decade, the Bishops were quick to retain Dr. McHugh as their 'expert' to defend their actions:

"Yet Dr. McHugh once said Johns Hopkins' Sexual Disorders Clinic, which treats molesters, was justified in concealing multiple incidents of child rape and fondling to police, despite a state law requiring staffers to report them.
"We did what we thought was appropriate," said Dr. McHugh, then director of Hopkins' Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, which oversaw the sex clinic. He agreed with his subordinate, clinic head Fred Berlin, who broke the then-new child sexual abuse law on the grounds that it might keep child molesters from seeking treatment."


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2002/aug/21/20020821-041050-7378r/



"McHugh has spent his career imposing his religious beliefs on the bodies of others and on the practices of peers. One Tiller patient was a 10-year-old girl, 28 weeks pregnant, who had been raped by an adult relative. McHugh said that while the girl’s case was “terrible,” it did not change his assessment: “She did not have something irreversible that abortion could correct.”"

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/paul-mchugh.html

So, in just a quick google search, we find the author of this article you posted supports child molesters, believes he has the right to lie to police to protect these molesters and thinks children who are the victims of rape and incest should be forced to carry their pregnancies to term. Ok, now we have a better idea of the source.

Now let's consider the content of his argument, which is difficult to do since he himself doesn't actually link to any of the data. You quote his numbers of 70-80% of children who reported transgender feelings losing those feelings as they got older. First of all, that's a pretty big gap, 70-80%, for such a definitive study. Especially when in the next sentence he states that 25% of those children never lost those feelings. So, is it 75% of kids who changed their minds? I'm confused. Probably because the data isn't definitive, or he's misrepresenting it.

Second, what is meant by "transgender feelings"? Is it a 5 year old boy who wants to wear a dress? Is it an 8 year old girl who wants to play football? Or is it a young child that actually articulated that they wished to change gender? We don't know, because again the actual study was not linked. All we got were vague and easily digestible conclusions by someone with an already stated agenda.

But now he tells us that we should be alarmed because transgender advocates have forced states to bar parents from 'correcting' this behaviour. Again, what does that mean? I certainly don't know. But in a country with a thriving 'pray the gay away' industry, it's hard to believe it's illegal for parents to try to force their kids to conform to a gender. What's more likely is that these laws bar excessive force like locking their kids in psychiatric institutions. This 'pressure' from transgender activists is likely the pressure to take transgender inclinations off the mental illness list.

Oh, but some states are forcing hormones that stunt growth down these kids' throats. And I'm sure if this was actually happening, at least in the alarming numbers Dr. McHugh says it is, he would have ample examples to cite in the article. Yet he fails to mention even one. Strange.

As for the other study that proved transgendered people have a higher depression and suicide rate, if common sense is not enough to help you understand that then you seem to be devoid of the same empathy that Mr. McHugh lacks. Depression and suicide is also much higher in the gay community, and has historically been used as proof that they are therefore scientifically diseased. But hey, why consider the fact that being born a small minority that is harassed, discriminated against, violently targeted and abused by those in power get into the equation? Never let reality get in the way of a good political rant.

Is there a discussion to be had about transgenderism and sexual reassignment surgery? Of course there is. I'm just not sure a guy who protects child molesters while advocating 10 year olds give birth to products of incest is the right guy to start it. We should probably listen to those most involved with it before we start attaching sensationalist terms like "PC" and "Liberal" to it. We should probably consider the source of articles and opinions before we accept them as truth.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

Now let's consider the content of his argument, which is difficult to do since he himself doesn't actually link to any of the data.

...

We don't know, because again the actual study was not linked.


I believe this is the study to which he refers.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesame wrote:

The mental frustration is what they get. They're idiots and deserve every bit of anguish they go through for undergoing such a moronic surgery procedure.


This is completely unreasonable in its hostility and lack of compassion.
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Mr. BlackCat



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Mr. BlackCat wrote:

Now let's consider the content of his argument, which is difficult to do since he himself doesn't actually link to any of the data.

...

We don't know, because again the actual study was not linked.


I believe this is the study to which he refers.


Yeah, I skimmed through the study after I googled it myself. The point I was making is that it's easy to use "a study" as your proof by cherry picking stats and not linking to it properly.

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

So, again, I question the conclusion. People who have sexual reassignment surgery are at greater risk than the general population. Ok, what about compared to transexuals who do not or are forbidden to undergo the surgery? Even if this study proved that transexuals are at greater risk of suicide and psychological issues, it only shows correlation, not causation. As I said, it doesn't take into account a lifetime of abuse, discrimination and alienation. To me, articles and arguments like Mr. McHugh's only serve to perpetuate these things, potentially intensifying the problem.

So, if McHugh's real concern is for the mental health of these individuals then why has he added to the potential cause of their psychological problems? It's even more laughable because he does so under the guise of sincere concern for these people.

It is for this reason that I brought up McHugh's past and belief system. Given his extreme religious views, borderline illegal past and questionable morals I doubt his real concern is the mental health of transexuals. I believe his main concern is to further isolate, control and shame them.

Like I said, there's a conversation to be had. But I'm not going to take the word of a man who defends molesters, lies to authorities and forces 10 year old rape victims to carry babies to term. Some people may not have a problem with all of that, but I do. And many others do too, so wrapping his extremely radical world view in snippets from studies and insincere medical concerns isn't going to do much good.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FriendlyDaegu wrote:
trueblue wrote:


Did this exist amongst children 60 years ago?


Of course. J. Edgar Hoover is a famous example.


There is a difference between cross-dressing to satisfy a sexual fetish and cutting off a *beep* because an individual thinks nature screwed up.
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
FriendlyDaegu wrote:
trueblue wrote:


Did this exist amongst children 60 years ago?


Of course. J. Edgar Hoover is a famous example.


There is a difference between cross-dressing to satisfy a sexual fetish and cutting off a *beep* because an individual thinks nature screwed up.

Nature does screw up. While individual thoughts will vary on the degree, nature is less than perfect.
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Kwangjuchicken



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Cosmic Hum wrote:
Titus wrote:
FriendlyDaegu wrote:
trueblue wrote:


Did this exist amongst children 60 years ago?


Of course. J. Edgar Hoover is a famous example.


There is a difference between cross-dressing to satisfy a sexual fetish and cutting off a *beep* because an individual thinks nature screwed up.

Nature does screw up. While individual thoughts will vary on the degree, nature is less than perfect.


Is your avatar a pic. of a full moon taken with a cell phone? I take one every month with mine and thy look like that when enlarged.
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