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List of "No Foreigners Allowed" Bars
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definitely maybe



Joined: 16 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Storysinger, I didn't mean that you were "coming down" on komerican. If you had read any threads that komerican has been involved in, you'd know that a great deal of negativity surrounds him. People get pretty angry about what he writes, and it is bound to happen again. That's why I wrote "going to." He's not exaclty a fan favorite here at Dave's, and very few posters can work up the masses as well as he can.

As for guys and girls trashing each other, it's not just happening in bars. It's happening in the workplace and in far tamer environs. The foreign "community" in Korea is already under an intensely biased microscope, and we could do far better in terms of presenting ourselves respectably. Whether people are willing to admit it or not, Koreans do understand more English than they let on, they do listen to us in public places, and they notice the negative way we treat each other.

People tend to remember the bad, not the good. Unfortunately, some Koreans still associate foreigners with trouble. As a long-term resident with a family here, I simply hope that we can figure out better ways to represent ourselves. Even if we do, it's still an uphill battle.
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komerican



Joined: 17 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you can say that the dysfunctional nature of gender relations among westerners is limited mostly to this board,


Quote:
I still fail to see the connection between a gender-hostile expat community (which, ÖI've only experienced in the smallest quantities, and mostly on Dave's


Obviously, the men who wrote all those posts would not agree. And of course this dysfunctional relationship between Western men and women affects the behavior of Western men in Korea. They're basically womanless, for whatever reason, and have no desire to date Western women. The greater the dysfunctionality the greater the unhappiness which leads to more hoardes of womanless western men going to these bars. Many of these bars obviously donít need the business. If more western men were less dysfunctional, i.e. had better relationships with western women youíd have less of this as a problem and fewer bars would need to have these policies.

At the end of the day these bar owners are not racists. They donít go about saying they hate white people. They just donít want this particular desperate dysfunctional type of white dude which Korea seems to attract in spades.


storysinger81 wrote:
definitely maybe wrote:
i know people are going to jump on komerican because he's generally postured against a lot of "our" ranting and raving, but i think there is a lot of truth in what he just wrote. it may not be the whole answer to the problem being addressed in this thread, but there is a strong chance that what he's said colors the view of foreigners here at times.

our community, particularly in seoul, is fragmented and even mercenary. throw in obvious disdain between the sexes, which is prevalent on this board and in countless conversations i've had over the years, and it becomes even more volatile. foreign men calling foreign women fat and ugly to koreans, foreign women calling foreign men dorks and losers who "could never get a girl at home", and god knows what else. we are literally feeding ammunition to a society fed up with our presence.

i'm not willing to concede that it is entirely "our" faults, but we do need to shoulder some of the blame.


I still fail to see the connection between a gender-hostile expat community (which, as I don't live in Seoul, I must say I've only experienced in the smallest quantities, and mostly on Dave's) and Korean bar/club owners banning foreign patrons. So guys and girls talk shit about each other to bartenders--how does that contribute to segregation?

I see the connection between perceived greater rowdy behavior from foreigners and the bar/club owners' reactions (which is what should be addressed--"foreigners" are not the problem, drunk, rowdy a$$holes are the problem; case in point: my boyfriend quit his bartending job at a foreign-frequented bar when he was punched in the face splitting up a fight--both fighters were Korean men, fighting over the use of proper speech levels between the junior and senior).

How does gender stereotyping make us greater targets for racial injustice in Korea?

I'm not trying to "come down on you" komerican, as definitely maybe implied; I am genuinely curious. There are some steps in your rationalizing process that you have not sufficiently explained.
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storysinger81



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for explaining your pov. You are right that such a deep divide as you describe/characterize would have a strong negative effect on the morale of all members of the expat community. Perhaps even without the censure of women from their own society/culture, all men would resort to "barbarian" states. I don't think so, but even more so I don't think that gender relations in the expat community in Korea are as you describe.

I can only comment on my own experiences. As I said, the episodes of gender tension such as you describe seem limited to a few clubs/bars that are distinctly unwelcoming of Korean men and foreign women, while being very inviting to Korean women and foreign men. As a foreign woman with other foreign women friends and Korean male friends/boyfriends/husbands, I choose not to frequent these establishments. However, at least they have the decency not to deny me entrance.

Other than these few places (the worst offender of which has closed in Daegu), generally the expat men and women I've met get along rather well, and even date one another if they choose to. I don't feel intense hostility from most expat men towards me unless I'm on this message board or at one of those bars. Do you live in Korea komerican or are basing your assessment on what you see in here?

As for your second point, I STRONGLY disagree with you that the policies are not racist. Any time you extrapolate the bad behavior of a few members of some group (in your opinion woman-less expat men) and set a policy banning all members of that group, it's the definition of discrimination. In this case, it's based on race and nationality. That makes it racist.

There is a reason these laws were banned in the U.S. back in the 60s.
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Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

komerican wrote:


Obviously, the men who wrote all those posts would not agree. And of course this dysfunctional relationship between Western men and women affects the behavior of Western men in Korea. They're basically womanless, for whatever reason, and have no desire to date Western women.


At the end of the day these bar owners are not racists. They donít go about saying they hate white people. They just donít want this particular desperate dysfunctional type of white dude which Korea seems to attract in spades.


False premise (2개), try again.
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I'm no Picasso



Joined: 28 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

komerican wrote:
I don't think you can say that the dysfunctional nature of gender relations among westerners is limited mostly to this board,


Quote:
I still fail to see the connection between a gender-hostile expat community (which, ÖI've only experienced in the smallest quantities, and mostly on Dave's


Obviously, the men who wrote all those posts would not agree. And of course this dysfunctional relationship between Western men and women affects the behavior of Western men in Korea. They're basically womanless, for whatever reason, and have no desire to date Western women. The greater the dysfunctionality the greater the unhappiness which leads to more hoardes of womanless western men going to these bars. Many of these bars obviously donít need the business. If more western men were less dysfunctional, i.e. had better relationships with western women youíd have less of this as a problem and fewer bars would need to have these policies.

At the end of the day these bar owners are not racists. They donít go about saying they hate white people. They just donít want this particular desperate dysfunctional type of white dude which Korea seems to attract in spades.


1. Yes they are just racists, Komerican. Looking at someone and deciding you know exactly who and what they are, and how they will behave, just judging by their race makes someone a racist. We're not talking about foreigners being kicked out for bad behavior -- we're talking about foreigners being denied entrance for simply turning up.

2. Really? It's not just on these forums? How much time do you spend engaging with the foreign community in the real world? Because I see foreign men and women behaving completely civilly toward each other each and every weekend, sometimes (gasp) even going home together.

3. You really want to make this all about the foreign men? After the Misuda dimwits did what they did on national television a few months ago?

4. If you really think what foreign women have to say outranks or outnumbers, in any shape, form or fashion, what an organization like Anti English Spectrum Cafe can do, then you have lost the plot altogether. If anything, they use what we say about each other merely as backing fodder for their own psychotic pursuits.
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benji



Joined: 21 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Komerican,
You have taken your spiel to a whole new level of stupidity. Sure Western men and women slag each other off on this board, but thats pretty much it. Its not happening openly in the workplace and definitely not happening in bars. Daves is not reality.

You say the womanless expat guy is the reason these bars dont want foreigners in? Ridiculous. There are far more womanless Korean guys in this country than foreigners.
The main reason these bars dont want foreigners is because the presence of foreigners makes their Korean customers uncomfortable.
And the more racist bar owners dont like to see Korean women and foreigner men comingling. And then a distant third would be past problems with foreigners such as fights.
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coralreefer_1



Joined: 19 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just out of curiosity...how do the masses here feel about the "foreigner only" bars that deny entrance to Koreans? Of course they are a minority, but I don't think it falls into the lines of "racism" when there are such places with policies against their own people. I think it is similar to many of the bars mentioned above.

Discrimination - Yes
Good business - Yes (In their mind)
Racism - I don't see it.

Also I would like to say in defense of my foreign community, that I think the kind of knocks we foreign men and women give each other, are not so much out of disdain for each other, but more akin to the same way we would tease our brother or sister. Perhaps in a romantic sense, foreign men may think foreign women are pigs, and foreign women may think foreign men are losers, but I think aside from the romantic/dating/relationship arena, those feelings are not widely felt. You don't want to date your sister, but you still care about her to a degree and don't harbor hatred for her.
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Young FRANKenstein



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcviking wrote:
Foxy club in Seomyeon in Busan. It happened when I first got here. The fat bouncer said I was too drunk and the girls complained, even though I hadn't started drinking yet or went into the door!!! Completely sober I went back three weeks later and the same [Mod Edit] bouncer said I was not allowed in to the club ever. Haven't been there since.

I've never had a problem with Foxy. Never been refused entry or hassled in any way. And I'm not exactly a uni-aged party guy, either.
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Young FRANKenstein



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

komerican wrote:
At the end of the day these bar owners are not racists. They donít go about saying they hate white people. They just donít want this particular desperate dysfunctional type of white dude which Korea seems to attract in spades.

You're right, it's not racism, but it is prejudice.
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shamham



Joined: 29 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong: (komerican said) " Most of the Western men are obsessed with meeting Korean women and have no interest in meeting women with a background similar to their own. So I'd call this an abnormal expat group. The result is it affects how they interact with the host community which begins to view them with some contempt. I mean a male English teacher is no longer viewed as an English teacher but a guy who has traveled thousands of miles just to talk to a slim Korean woman. It's not racism it's just Koreans not willing to deal with the disfunctional society that is the expat community."

Right: (UN said) "The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination chided South Korea ``that the emphasis placed on the ethnic homogeneity of Korea might represent an obstacle to the promotion of understanding, tolerance and friendship among the different ethnic and national groups living on its territory."

One instance I can recall of a friend refused entrance. He was a Brit, about 42, ruggedly handsome kind of guy, married to a Korean woman for 10 years, successful financial advisor, certainly not dysfunctional. Visiting family in Seoul at the time. Now, you could say 'the bouncer didn't know all that', but we all know it wouldn't have mattered.

Or my favorite, some years ago - my wife and I (me white, she korean) allowed in, while my black friend was refused entrance!

It's racism. Don't ascribe rationality to it. Komerican's unabashed ability to paint all foriegners in Korea with the same brush is just him proving this point - though he's probably unaware of this.

Study up on the history in the US re: 'no jews allowed' clubs. There were all kinds of studious rationales used to cover up the 'we just don't like them christ-killers' reality. And no, I'm not jewish.

Finally, I had to laugh out loud at the idea that western men coming to Korea and being hot for the K-women is somehow odd or dysfunctional... men chase women and look for variety - that's our biological engine! As a reverse example, I have done a lot of business over the years with Korean men who came to the USA, and have lost count of the number of times I've been asked, in essence, 'where the white girls at?' (though generally in much politer terms, of course.) I'd never dated an asian woman in my life when I first came to Korea as a single guy. I found Korean women beautiful and intoxicating. Why? Because they were. I chased them, yes. Why? Because they were exotic and different and I was a guy, and that's what straight guys do.

Anyway, the point is, the idea that the only reason single western men would chase exotic, beautiful Asian women is because they're losers and can't score with Western women is ludicrous, laughable, and completely absurd! Not chasing them would actually be much stranger behavior.

On a separate note, as I am subjected to many K-dramas via my wife (we'll just SAY I'm an unwilling watcher, okay? Let me preserve some dignity) I've been intrigued by a sudden jump in 'foreigner appearances' that don't denigrate foriengers. 'Swallow the Sun' has one of the K girls in Las Vegas caught in bed with her foreign boyfriend! I don't think you would have seen that even five years ago, so I will acknowledge that some progress is being made.
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cj1976 wrote:
If that happens in the UK, then there is usually some form of recourse. The UK has made massive steps to eradicate racially or nationality based discrimination. Korea does not have anything like that as far as I can tell.


Perhaps you should ask the guy holding the gun to your head for the past four years to put it down so you could go to a country you don't despise? Rolling Eyes
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cj1976



Joined: 26 Oct 2005

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
cj1976 wrote:
If that happens in the UK, then there is usually some form of recourse. The UK has made massive steps to eradicate racially or nationality based discrimination. Korea does not have anything like that as far as I can tell.


Perhaps you should ask the guy holding the gun to your head for the past four years to put it down so you could go to a country you don't despise? Rolling Eyes


Man, I don't despise Korea at all. I'm no hater but I'm no apologist either. The "If you don't like it here then leave" line is so annoying. For better or for worse, I am here. Personally speaking, Korea has been good to me and I haven't had too many negative experiences, but it doesn't mean I have to turn a blind eye to this sort of thing.
If the UN are making comments about this, then there must be something wrong.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is if your going to discriminate you use a 'dress code'. That's the smooth way. Mandate Crested Blazers or Haengboks or School Unis or Tuxedos. That and if you are a real businessman (as any bar owner should be) don't discriminate against the color that matters most: green.

I'm all for keeping out the riff-raff. But riff-raff is not color based. Another great way to keep out the bad element is to have live jazz singing or classical music. And yes, a dress code. Believe it or not people will alter their behaviors to match their attire.

But I don't think ALL of the barowners are 'racists'. I think some are looking more after their green than their black, brown, white, and yellow. They are expected to provide a certain kind of 'atmosphere' and they want to keep on providing it. These kinds of things are more complex- there's a lot more variables than just race at play. I'm sure at some of these joints if you were older and attired in a suit and in the company of several Korean businessmen you would be treated quite alright.

As for Komericans post- ?????? Yeah maybe on Dave's there is that but most FTs 1)aren't on Dave's and 2) Don't act like Dave's in the real world.
Reading to much into the Tea Leaves there.
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Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

madoka wrote:
cj1976 wrote:
If that happens in the UK, then there is usually some form of recourse. The UK has made massive steps to eradicate racially or nationality based discrimination. Korea does not have anything like that as far as I can tell.


Perhaps you should ask the guy holding the gun to your head for the past four years to put it down so you could go to a country you don't despise? Rolling Eyes


Irrelevant to the point he made. Try harder.
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T-J



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this were a true issue, then I would expect by page four there would actually be a list. Four pages and two or three questionable claims does not a problem make, especially given the enormous number of establishments in Korea.
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