Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

List of "No Foreigners Allowed" Bars
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
beercanman



Joined: 16 May 2009

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the best one I've heard was on a thread quite a while ago. Guy was denied entrance to a club in Busan, I think. The name of this establishment: "International Club".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mc_jc



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koramerican- You seem to be saying that Koreans favor segregation over integration. Most foreigners live in societies were integration is the key to making a society healthy and productive.
Living in a "host" country, it seems natural for a "guest" teacher to want to meet locals. And since they are men, it seems like human nature for men to be attracted to women. In places like the US and Canada, there are Korean men meeting, dating and marrying Western women.

My question is; Why is it such a problem for a foreign man to date a Korean woman?

I think it has to do with the "perceived" demographics and the perception that there are more Korean men than women- but who is to blame for that?
Korean parents put alot of emphasis on giving birth and raising sons that having a girl is seen as a curse on the family- thus, the perception that there are more men than women in Korea. The only "hope" for parents is for their daughter to marry a doctor, lawyer or business men. However, as women's libs hits Korea, more women are becoming picky as to who they want to marry, especially in regards to Korean marriage life- which DOES place the woman in virtual servitude to their spouse's family.
A few women do view marriage to a foreigner as an "escape" from that (but I will say that these women are in the strict minority).
From this, many Korean fear that Korean view foreign men would steal all their women, thus making them "overprotective" of who they seem them with...and also looking toward the day that both North and South Korea reunite because of the perception that there are more women in North Korea than in the South (because in the north, women serve lesser time in military service than men).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
komerican



Joined: 17 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read through all the posts. This is not US style racism. The policy is race-based but as I wrote in my first post in this thread race is not the whole story.

Your comment about the UN is absurd. I don't think the UN had in mind these bars when they talk about homogeneity. Also, the UN as others have pointed out puts out these human rights reports about every other country also.

Here's an interesting article about segregation and self-segregation in Britain today. Every facet of life is race based in Britain even to the extent that it dictates where people lived and of course where they socialize.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jan/21/islamandbritain.comment

Quote:
Britain is a multicultural society, but most people do not live in multicultural communities...

The term "segregation" is perhaps too strong to describe this phenomenon. Segregation literally means an enforced separation. But how much choice is really inherent in our present divisions? ...such movement is still limited and is counteracted by the "white flight" in which those white families who can also move out, sometimes in pursuit of what they see as a better schools or because they are afraid that their present area will "tip over" into a predominantly black area...

Some degree of "clustering" is not a bad thing. If we are serious about preserving cultural identity, then a critical mass of each community will be necessary to support different places of worship, shops and social facilities...These "parallel lives" do not meet at any point..."



So westerners want to maintain separate communities, which means separate social gatherings also, and yet you folks when you come to Korea seem to want o portray a different, false portrait of the segregated reality of your home countries. The US is the same of course, and Obama hasn't changed that.






shamham wrote:
Wrong: (komerican said) " Most of the Western men are obsessed with meeting Korean women and have no interest in meeting women with a background similar to their own. So I'd call this an abnormal expat group. The result is it affects how they interact with the host community which begins to view them with some contempt. I mean a male English teacher is no longer viewed as an English teacher but a guy who has traveled thousands of miles just to talk to a slim Korean woman. It's not racism it's just Koreans not willing to deal with the disfunctional society that is the expat community."

Right: (UN said) "The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination chided South Korea ``that the emphasis placed on the ethnic homogeneity of Korea might represent an obstacle to the promotion of understanding, tolerance and friendship among the different ethnic and national groups living on its territory."

One instance I can recall of a friend refused entrance. He was a Brit, about 42, ruggedly handsome kind of guy, married to a Korean woman for 10 years, successful financial advisor, certainly not dysfunctional. Visiting family in Seoul at the time. Now, you could say 'the bouncer didn't know all that', but we all know it wouldn't have mattered.

Or my favorite, some years ago - my wife and I (me white, she korean) allowed in, while my black friend was refused entrance!

It's racism. Don't ascribe rationality to it. Komerican's unabashed ability to paint all foriegners in Korea with the same brush is just him proving this point - though he's probably unaware of this.

Study up on the history in the US re: 'no jews allowed' clubs. There were all kinds of studious rationales used to cover up the 'we just don't like them christ-killers' reality. And no, I'm not jewish.

Finally, I had to laugh out loud at the idea that western men coming to Korea and being hot for the K-women is somehow odd or dysfunctional... men chase women and look for variety - that's our biological engine! As a reverse example, I have done a lot of business over the years with Korean men who came to the USA, and have lost count of the number of times I've been asked, in essence, 'where the white girls at?' (though generally in much politer terms, of course.) I'd never dated an asian woman in my life when I first came to Korea as a single guy. I found Korean women beautiful and intoxicating. Why? Because they were. I chased them, yes. Why? Because they were exotic and different and I was a guy, and that's what straight guys do.

Anyway, the point is, the idea that the only reason single western men would chase exotic, beautiful Asian women is because they're losers and can't score with Western women is ludicrous, laughable, and completely absurd! Not chasing them would actually be much stranger behavior.

On a separate note, as I am subjected to many K-dramas via my wife (we'll just SAY I'm an unwilling watcher, okay? Let me preserve some dignity) I've been intrigued by a sudden jump in 'foreigner appearances' that don't denigrate foriengers. 'Swallow the Sun' has one of the K girls in Las Vegas caught in bed with her foreign boyfriend! I don't think you would have seen that even five years ago, so I will acknowledge that some progress is being made.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
komerican



Joined: 17 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that it's normal for a teacher to meet locals. I'm just describing one factor that helps us understand the foreign community. I also think it's normal for the local men to not like it especially when there seems to be an abnormal fixation on Korean women by these men.

I'm describing some of the factors that underlie this behavior. Clearly a lot of western men have deep feelings of anger toward western women. Of course they are not going to say this face to face and that's why Dave's and other sites like this are so valuable since we get the truth here. It would be naive to believe what the men tell you and not believe what they can write anonymously here on Dave’s with no fear of repercussions. You have to follow what people do not what they say to you. And my point is that the dysfunctional nature of gender relations among westerners is contributing to some of these bars closing their doors to these particular types of men. Maybe if the Western men were happier with their western women there would be fewer of them prowling the clubs hunting for Korean female company.

Perhaps western men should be more accepting of a few pounds beyond their ideal. Perhaps western men should be more open-minded and try to date black Western women, something which I hardly ever see.



mc_jc wrote:
Koramerican- You seem to be saying that Koreans favor segregation over integration. Most foreigners live in societies were integration is the key to making a society healthy and productive.
Living in a "host" country, it seems natural for a "guest" teacher to want to meet locals. And since they are men, it seems like human nature for men to be attracted to women. In places like the US and Canada, there are Korean men meeting, dating and marrying Western women.

My question is; Why is it such a problem for a foreign man to date a Korean woman?

I think it has to do with the "perceived" demographics and the perception that there are more Korean men than women- but who is to blame for that?
Korean parents put alot of emphasis on giving birth and raising sons that having a girl is seen as a curse on the family- thus, the perception that there are more men than women in Korea. The only "hope" for parents is for their daughter to marry a doctor, lawyer or business men. However, as women's libs hits Korea, more women are becoming picky as to who they want to marry, especially in regards to Korean marriage life- which DOES place the woman in virtual servitude to their spouse's family.
A few women do view marriage to a foreigner as an "escape" from that (but I will say that these women are in the strict minority).
From this, many Korean fear that Korean view foreign men would steal all their women, thus making them "overprotective" of who they seem them with...and also looking toward the day that both North and South Korea reunite because of the perception that there are more women in North Korea than in the South (because in the north, women serve lesser time in military service than men).


Last edited by komerican on Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T-J wrote:
If this were a true issue, then I would expect by page four there would actually be a list. Four pages and two or three questionable claims does not a problem make, especially given the enormous number of establishments in Korea.


For real. Let's see, I the only place I was refused service was at whatsitsface garden shop trying to buy house plants. This was solved by me walking across the street to the other store where the lady was more patient with my lack of Korean.

Other than that no refused service anywhere. None. One of the bars did kick out a table of Koreans to make way for us foreigners though. In fact as foreigners I have gotten a free shirt, free socks, free drinks at my favorite street food vendor, free drinks at the Isaac Toast, Free cola at the Boor chicken, free facial products at the local Face Shop, free bar munchies (no free drinks from the bar tho Crying or Very sad ) minions told to run off and clean stuff up to make way for us, free meals from random people, free rounds from strangers, free Noraebang time, Free Noraebang fruit trays, and a free pass on manners.

I think I've come out well ahead.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mc_jc



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koramerican- I agree with where you are going with this in many repspects.
From what is asked here by newbies coming to Korea, there is not many posts asking about Korean culture, traditions and history- most of the threads by these new guys FOB are about how easy local women are.
The problem stems from the perceptions that date back to the Korean War- old veterans would remark about how easy it was to "score" with Korean women as well as stories about relatives being stationed in Korea who either married a Korean woman or romped around with many women during their stay in Korea.
The problem- that was the Korea of the past, when Korea was still reeling from the effects of the war, that was still felt well in to the early 90's.
Things have changed VERY drastically and the perceptions of foreigners have changed as well, mainly because so many are coming to Korea after the World Cup.
There are still women who fall for foreign men, but it is not a mass obsession as many men perceive it to be. The problem is- although Koreans perceptions of foreigners have changed, foreigners perceptions of Koreans have changed little. I have to agree that many foreigners DO come to Korea with the objective of meeting women (I know this because I was the same way when I was younger).

Of these, there are three ways a man might react;

~ They would become disappointed with the amount of rejection they encounter and live or leave bitter

~ They meet the "right" one and eventually get married

~ Forget about the ratrace and just enjoy what Korea has to offer
- Good food
- Good culture
- fascinating history
- excellent travel opportunities

I have to admit, I was in the first category until I stopped caring about finding love and started to enjoy my life in Korea. I have great friends, lots of chances to travel and meet new, interesting people. If I meet someone, I believe it would happen by chance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
komerican



Joined: 17 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mc_jc wrote:
Koramerican- I agree with where you are going with this in many repspects.
From what is asked here by newbies coming to Korea, there is not many posts asking about Korean culture, traditions and history- most of the threads by these new guys FOB are about how easy local women are.
The problem stems from the perceptions that date back to the Korean War- old veterans would remark about how easy it was to "score" with Korean women as well as stories about relatives being stationed in Korea who either married a Korean woman or romped around with many women during their stay in Korea.
The problem- that was the Korea of the past, when Korea was still reeling from the effects of the war, that was still felt well in to the early 90's.
Things have changed VERY drastically and the perceptions of foreigners have changed as well, mainly because so many are coming to Korea after the World Cup.
There are still women who fall for foreign men, but it is not a mass obsession as many men perceive it to be. The problem is- although Koreans perceptions of foreigners have changed, foreigners perceptions of Koreans have changed little. I have to agree that many foreigners DO come to Korea with the objective of meeting women (I know this because I was the same way when I was younger).

Of these, there are three ways a man might react;

~ They would become disappointed with the amount of rejection they encounter and live or leave bitter

~ They meet the "right" one and eventually get married

~ Forget about the ratrace and just enjoy what Korea has to offer
- Good food
- Good culture
- fascinating history
- excellent travel opportunities

I have to admit, I was in the first category until I stopped caring about finding love and started to enjoy my life in Korea. I have great friends, lots of chances to travel and meet new, interesting people. If I meet someone, I believe it would happen by chance.


You seem to have a great life! I know I won't be reading about you being thrown in jail by your Korean employer like a certain someone here, lol.

You clearly live a life where you don't have to blame/scapegoat the entire Korean people for your decisions, good luck to you MC_JC!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storysinger81



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

komerican--

You still haven't answered my question about whether you're basing your observations of gender relations within the expat community on this board or on your real experiences in Korea. Which is it? I've already explained to you that Dave's is NOT the reality, not the majority of what I've experienced in Korea. Actually, it's a rather, loud, obnoxious extremely small minority, but the rest of us just roll our eyes and wish Korea would raise its standards about who they admit into the country as "teachers."

Most women (and actually most sane expat men) abandon this forum's chaos once they actually get to Korea because it's utter crap. I admit, I was away for the last two years (after Kermit, ttompatz, swetepete, and rss left, I just couldn't read this stuff) and just recently thought I'd try to help out some newbies get a more balanced perspective, but I'll probably get fed up with the unhealthy atmosphere once again and leave.

If you live in Korea, I'd like to know where you're seeing this divide.

ETA: My own stupid mistakes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I'm sure things are different in bigger cities and whatnot, in my small sample town, out of the like 15 foreigners here, 10 are married to non-Koreans (9 to non-Asians) and four are single and I think one be gay. Of the hetero singles, one has a K-Girl, one is juggling(or fumbling-me) multiple k-girls (I be ethnic Korean and all that- so please don't dongchim/pipe bomb me Anti-English Spectrum), and the other seems to be totally asexual. There is one single western girl here but she seems okay with it all. No one here has hatred for western women. In fact all of us seriously would love to just have some ethnic variety. This sounds a little off, but I haven't talked to a real live Black/Middle Eastern/Hispanic person since I left the States and I miss the mosaic of people.

In our small town we all get along and we all are regularly together. I guess the scene in Seoul just has all that teenage/High School clique crap. The only people who ARE cliquey are the Korean-American TALK program kids. I just don't see the 'gender' conflict here or the Koreans v. Westerners. It's just like back home- something about big cities makes people morons.

No one here seems to have all of the anti-foreigner sentiment either. Like I said, we get treated special, not as crap. Helps that people here are the married, older type who don't go around getting drunk and acting like buffoons.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kiknkorea



Joined: 16 May 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
It's just like back home- something about big cities makes people morons.

Completely disagree with this.

Back home, I lived in both the city and in small towns and noticed a lot more cliques and morons (per capita anyway) in the small country towns than the city. No contest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
komerican



Joined: 17 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live and work in Korea and I've worked in a large faculty with many westerners. I agree that Dave's seems to be more negative than the westerners I've met but we have to keep in mind that people generally don't tell you face to face what they will say anonymously on a message board.

I agree that there's no way to tell if Dave’s accurately portrays the majority view. But I also don't think we have to hear from every teacher to get an idea of what significant swathes of that demographic are thinking. The sample size we get on Dave's seems large enough that we can make some generalizations about the English teacher community. But I agree that we should of course keep in mind that there is diversity here just as in any large group.

Still, we need to work with some generalizations and I don't see Westerners holding back on their generalizations of Koreans either.

Westerners also waffle on this, saying this board represents the reality for all English teachers when an issue reflects negatively on Koreans and then flip flop and say the community is too diverse when some issue reflects negatively on them.




storysinger81 wrote:
komerican--

You still haven't answered my question about whether you're basing your observations of gender relations within the expat community on this board or on your real experiences in Korea. Which is it? I've already explained to you that Dave's is NOT the reality, not the majority of what I've experienced in Korea. Actually, it's a rather, loud, obnoxious extremely small minority, but the rest of us just roll our eyes and wish Korea would raise its standards about who they admit into the country as "teachers."

Most women (and actually most sane expat men) abandon this forum's chaos once they actually get to Korea because it's utter crap. I admit, I was away for the last two years (after Kermit, ttompatz, swetepete, and rss left, I just couldn't read this stuff) and just recently thought I'd try to help out some newbies get a more balanced perspective, but I'll probably get fed up with the unhealthy atmosphere once again and leave.

If you live in Korea, I'd like to know where you're seeing this divide.

ETA: My own stupid mistakes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storysinger81



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

komerican:

I think you are grossly overestimating the number of people on this board who think that the negative experiences with Koreans posted here accurately demonstrate what we feel/believe about Korea and Koreans. Just when people get like that, they're quick to call you an apologist if you jump up and say, "Hey, most of the Koreans I know are pretty nice, awesome people." (which is true).

You are also underestimating the effect that the negativity has on scaring/driving away all the positive people.

And I'm no Picasso is now my hero. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
I'm no Picasso



Joined: 28 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storysinger81 wrote:


And I'm no Picasso is now my hero. Smile


That's nice. The mods don't seem to have felt the same way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

komerican wrote:
I agree that it's normal for a teacher to meet locals. I'm just describing one factor that helps us understand the foreign community. I also think it's normal for the local men to not like it especially when there seems to be an abnormal fixation on Korean women by these men.


"There seems to be" is pretty a weak way to frame an argument. You've yet to demonstrate how is it that the foreign men in Korea can't or don't interact with foreign women, another real doozy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:


For real. Let's see, I the only place I was refused service was at whatsitsface garden shop trying to buy house plants. This was solved by me walking across the street to the other store where the lady was more patient with my lack of Korean.

Other than that no refused service anywhere. None.



Well then it must never happen. Case closed, Korea is shangri-la.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International