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Being a vegetarian in Korea
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Crockpot2001



Joined: 01 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
I went to What's David in Songdo, Incheon, and ordered the Vegetarian Pasta and an Italian style (appetizer) pizza with a friend on my birthday. Turns out the pasta (with cheshik written in Korean as well as the word vegetarian in English) had chicken stock in the dish. Rolling Eyes


Did you file a complaint? If so, did you get a response?


They apologized, and the next time I went they offered to make a few of the non vegetarian things (Mexican food) vegetarian for my party, as a few of us were vegetarians. It's a decent place, but it was a little annoying that first time. I'm vegetarian (well, I eat some seafood when in Asia to make life easier so I'm technically pescatarian) only for health, and not because I love animals. Burgers taste amazing, I just don't want the meat in my system. A little chicken stock accidentally wasn't going to ruin my birthday out. The pizza was great, though sometimes they undercook the thin crust. I prefer mine a little more on the well done side.


Agreed on the Pizza. I ask for well done and no honey! When did you have the visit when the chicken stock was used?
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Poltergeist



Joined: 03 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crockpot2001 wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
Crockpot2001 wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
Crockpot2001 wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
Crockpot2001 wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:

Do you have any proof that vegetarians and/or vegans have higher rates of iron deficiency anemia than the general population? If so, I'd like to see a credible link.


Please re-read my post more carefully. I've highlighted some phrases to help you. The content has not changed.


You haven't addressed my question. Everyone knows iron from plant sources is harder to absorb, even us laypeople who haven't studied phytates or any of the other -ates. Everyone knows that's why they set the iron requirements higher for non-flesheaters. However, do you have statistical evidence that iron deficiency is a real problem for non-flesheaters, compared with the general population? I know everyone knows someone who knows someone who got sick because they stopped eating flesh and ate nothing but Twinkies, but that's not relevant to the question I'm asking.


OMG, I know where you are trying to go, claiming that I am stating that all vegetarian/vegan diets are risky, I am not, but you are ignoring where I've been. "improperly executed" has been highlighted just for you. I'm talking about a poorly designed vegetarian diet. I never claimed a well thought out vegan/vegatarian diet WILL be risky. I did claim that adding OJ to non-heme sources could be helpful.


Why does it have to be OJ? Why not red peppers, or cucumbers, or lettuce? (All of which are readily available in Korea, BTW.)

You joined this discussion to refute a poster who'd joined it to refute the notion that it's "too hard" to get enough of X [iron or whatever nutrients] while in Korea. You haven't jumped into any of the discussions of smoking, drinking or other drug use and called those practices "risky."

I'm not a health professional, but I can say confidently that smoking cigarettes is risky because there's a mountain of death certificates to back that statement up. Tell me, why would you assume that someone who doesn't want to include flesh (or other animal products) in his/her diet is an idiot who needs a stern warning to do it "right"--possibly even a stronger warning than you'd extend to a smoker or alcoholic?


Oh, I'm supposed to address every health concern here? I never called anyone an idiot. I never offered a stern warning. are you mixing me and Le-paul up?

I'm not sure I've ever posting anything HERE on the risks of smoking, drinking or drugs....and for this very reason. I'm not interested in furthering this circle jerk.


No, I don't think so. I think LP's intention was to dispel the fearmongering and disinformation that usually surround this subject. He gave us an example of what he might eat in a given day to get enough iron. He's probably not a woman, and his body probably doesn't have an inborn tendency to reject iron. So what? It's not his job to plan everyone's meals for them every day. It's funny that you get so rude and defensive when asked for information.


Maybe it seems rude to you, if so, I apologize, I don't mean to project that. I AM certainly frustrated at being asked to substantiate a claim I've not made and would have a hard time backing up.

If I seem rude to you, I appologize,



Really? You think telling someone to reread your post and highlighting the words "risk" and "improperly executed" is proper etiquette?

Your tone when writing about plant-based diets seemed unnecessarily negative. I am not aware of any inherent "risks" from not eating flesh, but I'm very interested in knowing what they are if they exist. A study proving that a significant population of non-flesheaters have higher rates of X disease [anemia, cancer, flesh-eating disease, etc.] than flesheaters would justify the use of such an alarming word--otherwise, where does it come from? "I know someone who knows someone who knows someone" is usually the best the Dave's crowd can come up with, but I'm not going to let a person in a position of authority get away with such antics.

Dave's isn't known as a source of reliable information about anything, and the first post in this thread was a great example: "[Y]ou can't rely on just one source of protein, your body needs other sources of protein, not to mention that if don't ferment your tofu properly your body has difficulty processing it." LP refuted that misinformed post and you responded with a snarky one-liner about "phytates"--as if we all have to be chemistry majors to do our grocery shopping without incurring undue "risks." Your statement about proper and improper execution was really condescending and implied that readers are too stupid to know that vegetables are healthier than Twinkies.
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Poltergeist



Joined: 03 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
[q
Do you have any proof that vegetarians and/or vegans have higher rates of iron deficiency anemia than the general population? If so, I'd like to see a credible link.



According to the Mayo Clinic vegetarians are a higher at risk group.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/iron-deficiency-amemia/DS00323/DSECTION=risk-factors


Where are the details showing how they determined that? That's the information I was asking for, not just another appeal to authority.
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Poltergeist



Joined: 03 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote:
I went to What's David in Songdo, Incheon, and ordered the Vegetarian Pasta and an Italian style (appetizer) pizza with a friend on my birthday. Turns out the pasta (with cheshik written in Korean as well as the word vegetarian in English) had chicken stock in the dish. Rolling Eyes


Did you file a complaint? If so, did you get a response?


They apologized, and the next time I went they offered to make a few of the non vegetarian things (Mexican food) vegetarian for my party, as a few of us were vegetarians. It's a decent place, but it was a little annoying that first time. I'm vegetarian (well, I eat some seafood when in Asia to make life easier so I'm technically pescatarian) only for health, and not because I love animals. Burgers taste amazing, I just don't want the meat in my system. A little chicken stock accidentally wasn't going to ruin my birthday out. The pizza was great, though sometimes they undercook the thin crust. I prefer mine a little more on the well done side.


I'm glad they apologized, and I hope they'll change the menu to make it clear that the dish isn't vegetarian.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poltergeist wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
[q
Do you have any proof that vegetarians and/or vegans have higher rates of iron deficiency anemia than the general population? If so, I'd like to see a credible link.



According to the Mayo Clinic vegetarians are a higher at risk group.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/iron-deficiency-amemia/DS00323/DSECTION=risk-factors


Where are the details showing how they determined that? That's the information I was asking for, not just another appeal to authority.



The references are at the bottom. You can Google and read them at your leisure.
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Poltergeist



Joined: 03 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
[q
Do you have any proof that vegetarians and/or vegans have higher rates of iron deficiency anemia than the general population? If so, I'd like to see a credible link.



According to the Mayo Clinic vegetarians are a higher at risk group.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/iron-deficiency-amemia/DS00323/DSECTION=risk-factors


Where are the details showing how they determined that? That's the information I was asking for, not just another appeal to authority.



The references are at the bottom. You can Google and read them at your leisure.


They look very interesting, and I'll read them later, but the main subject of the articles seems to be anemia and how to deal with it. It's not clear what populations were studied to make the claim that not eating flesh is a risk factor. I have seen the opposite claim appear on reliable websites--that rates of iron deficiency are equal among flesheaters and non-flesheaters. However, if that information is proven wrong, I'll bring it to the attention of the site operators and ask them to correct it.
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Crockpot2001



Joined: 01 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
[q
Do you have any proof that vegetarians and/or vegans have higher rates of iron deficiency anemia than the general population? If so, I'd like to see a credible link.



According to the Mayo Clinic vegetarians are a higher at risk group.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/iron-deficiency-amemia/DS00323/DSECTION=risk-factors


Where are the details showing how they determined that? That's the information I was asking for, not just another appeal to authority.



The references are at the bottom. You can Google and read them at your leisure.


Oh boy. This is not gonna go well. Those refs don't actually help. They require membership or reflect what has already been argued (even though all parties were more or less on the same side of the fence)

Maybe th Mayo clinic has something to cure my "snarkiness". Smile
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Poltergeist



Joined: 03 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crockpot2001 wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
[q
Do you have any proof that vegetarians and/or vegans have higher rates of iron deficiency anemia than the general population? If so, I'd like to see a credible link.



According to the Mayo Clinic vegetarians are a higher at risk group.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/iron-deficiency-amemia/DS00323/DSECTION=risk-factors


Where are the details showing how they determined that? That's the information I was asking for, not just another appeal to authority.



The references are at the bottom. You can Google and read them at your leisure.


Oh boy. This is not gonna go well. Those refs don't actually help. They require membership or reflect what has already been argued (even though all parties were more or less on the same side of the fence)

Maybe th Mayo clinic has something to cure my "snarkiness". Smile


I'm really not following you here. I didn't come to this site today with the intention of doing in-depth research, but I have seen conflicting claims on this subject. If you can come up with a direct link that resolves the confusion once and for all, this visit to Dave's won't have been a complete waste of everyone's precious time. Otherwise, I'll keep looking when I'm in more of a research mode.
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Crockpot2001



Joined: 01 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poltergeist wrote:
Crockpot2001 wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
[q
Do you have any proof that vegetarians and/or vegans have higher rates of iron deficiency anemia than the general population? If so, I'd like to see a credible link.



According to the Mayo Clinic vegetarians are a higher at risk group.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/iron-deficiency-amemia/DS00323/DSECTION=risk-factors


Where are the details showing how they determined that? That's the information I was asking for, not just another appeal to authority.



The references are at the bottom. You can Google and read them at your leisure.


Oh boy. This is not gonna go well. Those refs don't actually help. They require membership or reflect what has already been argued (even though all parties were more or less on the same side of the fence)

Maybe th Mayo clinic has something to cure my "snarkiness". Smile


I'm really not following you here. I didn't come to this site today with the intention of doing in-depth research, but I have seen conflicting claims on this subject. If you can come up with a direct link that resolves the confusion once and for all, this visit to Dave's won't have been a complete waste of everyone's precious time. Otherwise, I'll keep looking when I'm in more of a research mode.


I'm not sure who is responsible for the wasted time. it's out of control though.
What I will clear up is that the links that I see provided by the Mayo clinic, which you asked for and Urban myth directed us to, are not accessible without a membership or do not provide research based evidence. That's all I'm saying.
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nathanrutledge



Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speaking of wastes of time, why don't you take this conversation elsewhere and let this thread remain about the specific topic of "vegetarians in korea?
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Poltergeist



Joined: 03 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crockpot2001 wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
Crockpot2001 wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Poltergeist wrote:
[q
Do you have any proof that vegetarians and/or vegans have higher rates of iron deficiency anemia than the general population? If so, I'd like to see a credible link.



According to the Mayo Clinic vegetarians are a higher at risk group.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/iron-deficiency-amemia/DS00323/DSECTION=risk-factors


Where are the details showing how they determined that? That's the information I was asking for, not just another appeal to authority.



The references are at the bottom. You can Google and read them at your leisure.


Oh boy. This is not gonna go well. Those refs don't actually help. They require membership or reflect what has already been argued (even though all parties were more or less on the same side of the fence)

Maybe th Mayo clinic has something to cure my "snarkiness". Smile


I'm really not following you here. I didn't come to this site today with the intention of doing in-depth research, but I have seen conflicting claims on this subject. If you can come up with a direct link that resolves the confusion once and for all, this visit to Dave's won't have been a complete waste of everyone's precious time. Otherwise, I'll keep looking when I'm in more of a research mode.


I'm not sure who is responsible for the wasted time. it's out of control though.
What I will clear up is that the links that I see provided by the Mayo clinic, which you asked for and Urban myth directed us to, are not accessible without a membership or do not provide research based evidence. That's all I'm saying.


That's a helpful first step. Weird that you found the question so threatening.
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tomato



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The doctor just told me to go vegetarian in order to get rid of a gout in my right leg and foot.
Sorry if this post is void of content, but making this post is the only way I know to get on this mailing list.
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Poltergeist



Joined: 03 Sep 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomato wrote:
The doctor just told me to go vegetarian in order to get rid of a gout in my right leg and foot.
Sorry if this post is void of content, but making this post is the only way I know to get on this mailing list.


What mailing list? Cool about the doctor.
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NYC_Gal 2.0



Joined: 10 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went towards the end of September. I do like that it's a non-smoking restaurant, and the food is pretty good.

Usually, for super thin crust pizza I go to a place in Art Center called W Gallery (right above Boobie Boobie LOL) and they make a nice pie. I've had the 4-cheese, the margherita, and the gorgonzola (that one comes on black crust and with a side of honey for dipping). It's nice to change it up a bit though and go to David's, especially if the group wants more than one type of food.

The second time I went, I asked about the pasta and the waitress said they could make it without chicken stock, but I opted for corn soup and a shared pizza.
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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

re: the great iron debate
heres 3 links showing no greater iron deficiency anaemia in veg heads than meat chompers (despite generally having lower iron levels)

http://www.ajcn.org/content/78/3/633S.full.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10232635

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479197

in short - nothing much to worry about here - move along now...

getting heart disease, high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes are things people should be much more wary of (but if yer worried about iron or B12 etc- just get your levels checked out anyway - its so cheap in Korea)

Back to the original point of the post - OP I think it's becoming increasingly easier to be a vegetarian here - and one thing i've noticed is the explosion in vege-restaurants in the last 3 years (now over 40 Loving Huts nationally alone..)...and very often bustling with people - sometimes with queues out the doors (queue = line North Americans) case in point the Insadong Supreme Master Ching place Osegyehyang - it was always quiet when i visited there 2007/8 - but was there a couple of weeks ago and had to wait 30 mins for a table...
my only gripe these days is the focus they put on recreating meat dishes with soy or wheat protein instead of making healthy whole food vegefare..



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