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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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 Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
1. As long as the korean college entrance examinations have an engish component there will ALWAYS be a need for a large number of english teachers . I think Japan (which does have a language component on their test) is a bit of apples and oranges because their economy has been in stagnation for a long time.
2. Who does the teaching of english may change but the fact is the korean parent mindset will have to change for it to be anything other than a native speaker who looks 'wayguk' for it to change.
3. Korean parents pay top dollar for hogwons with the right 'face' there. I don't see that changing. The ones that pay less for someone that doesn't fit the bill is doing so out of financial need sometimes. If their finances get better so will their hogwon. |
Three excellent points. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Way back in '99 (just after the IMF bailout) there were about 6000 foreign teachers in Korea (from a low of 1800 at the end of '97).
It has steadily grown to the current state of about 30,000 E2s being issued last year.
Will ESL in Korea disappear any time in the near future = no.
Are government programs scaling back = yes (sort of).
GEPIK is trimming 200 positions from their current 2300 NETS.
EPIK is doing something similar.
Even with the trimmed recruitment levels there are still more NETS working at public schools now (and into the near future) than the TOTAL of NETS working in Korea a decade ago.
I honestly believe that the recruitment levels WILL drop down to about something close to 20,000 E2s over the next few years and maintain at that level.
The demand for NETS in the rest of Asia will continue to grow. China is expecting a demand for more than a 1/2 MILLION new ESL teachers over the next decade. (sounds like a lot but not when you consider it against a population of over 1.3 billion 20% of which, 260 million, are of school age; an average of 1 NET for 5200 kids over 10 years).
AS things improve economically in the west over the next 5 years we will also see a LARGE drop in the number of grads who will be willing to come to Korea as teachers.
So I guess, after all that rambling, to answer the OPs original question; You have no fear. There will be a job for you in the near and mid term. The pay and benefits packages will remain stagnant but there will be work.
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Last edited by ttompatz on Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
As long as the korean college entrance examinations have an engish component there will ALWAYS be a need for a large number of english teachers . I think Japan (which does have a language component on their test) is a bit of apples and oranges because their economy has been in stagnation for a long time.
Who does the teaching of english may change but the fact is the korean parent mindset will have to change for it to be anything other than a native speaker who looks 'wayguk' for it to change.
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I take this view too...........as long as Koreans only recognize the three SKY universities as being where 'winners' go to, and as long as those uni's place an importance on English level for entrance, then we will continue to be hired. |
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Kurtz
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Location: ples bilong me
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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It's all speculation; here's some more....
1) Will visa requirements become more relaxed?
2) Will contracts get better? vacation time, housing allowances, sick-days
3) Will the PAY get better?
4) Will the same problems you read on here every day regarding being allowed to teach rather than be a tape recorder be addressed?
5) Will your fate as a teacher still be at the mercy of your students( 9 year-olds grading me!), co-teachers who aren't in the room half the time, clipboard holding, suit wearing ajosshis who can only manage an uncertain "hello" in English from the local MOE or from Korean mothers change?
6) Will the ridiculous demands for entry level jobs change?
Sure, ESL in Korea might soldier on but will it be worth it? |
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Adios_Corea
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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While this is all speculation, I personally believe that the answer to all of your questions is both YES and NO.
| Kurtz wrote: |
It's all speculation; here's some more....
1) Will visa requirements become more relaxed? |
I think that requirements will become more relaxed for those who stay in Korea for more than a year, and that definitely we'll see a much easier path to residency in the next decade. We went to Immigration last week to pick up our passports with added workplaces for a camp, and shockingly they gave us our 60 bucks back! They said that the regulations had changed and that it was now FREE to add workplaces, which is a huge upgrade from 60 bucks. Same goes for the removal of having to pay to get a re-entry pass....so some regs will get tighter, but they do seem to be making things easier/more foreigner friendly in other regards.
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| 2) Will contracts get better? vacation time, housing allowances, sick-days |
For public school jobs? Probably not. Supply and demand will keep those jobs full...hagwon jobs might get better if the teacher supply drops....uni jobs will probably get worse before they get better. There are still a lot of schools out there who don't realize that they could pay less and give way less vacation and still be able to fill the jobs with applicants of approximately the same qualifications....of course at the same time other unis are learning that higher pay means that they can attract better qualified lecturers....so I think that we'll see more of a polarization in uni packages, schools that don't require an MA will slowly lower their wages while other schools will raise their pay whilst asking for more education/experience.
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| 3) Will the PAY get better? |
I think that the pay is reasonable for most jobs here...if it weren't reasonable then they wouldn't be filling the jobs. There is no reason to believe that there will be pay increases when they can easily fill the jobs as it is....look at the ESL industry in MOST other countries and you will see that the pay here is VERY GOOD, even at the low paying levels.
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4) Will the same problems you read on here every day regarding being allowed to teach rather than be a tape recorder be addressed? |
Slowly this will improve.
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5) Will your fate as a teacher still be at the mercy of your students( 9 year-olds grading me!), co-teachers who aren't in the room half the time, clipboard holding, suit wearing ajosshis who can only manage an uncertain "hello" in English from the local MOE or from Korean mothers change? |
No, this will not change.
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6) Will the ridiculous demands for entry level jobs change? |
As Korea becomes more and more livable, we will probably see more demands for these entry level jobs....look at Japan. Although I think that we are still a LONG ways off from people WANTING to come to Korea like they want to go to Japan. A lot of apologists say that they love Korea and would want to live here even if the financial situation wasn't so beneficial, but I think that these people are in the minority. If folk had to fly to Korea and pound the pavement to look for a job that would just pay for their expenses, you'd see a drastic drop-off in the number of people coming. This is the story for most jobs in Japan, yet tons of people still try to find work there simply because they want to live in Japan....some people love Korea, but I still think that most of the people who "like" it here would cease to do so if the excess of disposable income was taken away. |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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The ESL industry will definitely be here. It's here to stay, and it will stay strong. However, the ESL industry as we know it now will not exist. The E2 visa won't be as prominent for two main reasons:
1) Several people have F2 visas now, and are teaching, opening schools, working for universities, high schools, you name it. The number of F2s is always going up every year. So you can keep counting on them to fill up spaces and be preferred over E2s.
2) Several Koreans have lived abroad, came back, and are now speaking without Korean accents. Many of them are looking for decent paying jobs. In 10-15 years from now, a huge majority of the E2 visas will be replaced by the very students we taught!
So, one day, the market will be saturated with people who live and work in Korea, and keep their money in Korea. The situation will be much better for Korea in some ways. Of course they'll always continue to import foreign workers (that's globalism for ya) but I don't think the good days of E2s getting apartments, 2.4 million, plus benefits will last much longer. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| brento1138 wrote: |
In 10-15 years from now, a huge majority of the E2 visas will be replaced by the very students we taught!
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This depends on the quality of education they received. Many foreign teachers spend their time playing hangman or bomb games. That doesn't mean the occasional one is bad...but there have been foreign teachers here for over 20 years now. There is still not much change. The majority of teachers here are not qualified or trained. Sure everyone likes to boast how how popular they are and how much their students learn.
The thing is that becoming fluent in a language takes years of constant progressive practice. You could be a great teacher...but the guys before you and the ones after you could be incompetent unqualified bozos. The constantly revolving door of this business ensures that only a few students here and there will improve their English to the point where they can teach it competently.
Heck there are Korean English teachers who have been teaching this for 20 years or more, go to every English seminar they can and still are forced to resort to explaining 90% of the class in Korean.
Sure there are exceptions to all of the above...but they are exceptions. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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I also think a lot of folks are greatly underestimating the impact of China. Its a nascent market but it will only grow by leaps and bounds. The pay wil get better. America and the west has become a significant trading partner and the lingua franca of interational business is english.
Also, learning mandarin is infinitely more marketable to your career back home than knowing korean. As close as America and Korea are, China has replaced America as Korea's biggest trading partner. So, even the Koreans will have to learn mandarin in the future. The parents who have an eye for trends are sending their kids to chinese language classes. Every child knows 'ne ha ma' almost as easy as they know hello nowadays.
Its not just the english teaching market. There are a number of american, canadian, british, etc. companies already in china or itching to get in and would pay a very healthy wage to a mandarin speaking college grad from their own country who they believe knows the lay of the land than having to talk some of their own managment into pulling up stakes and moving there.
In 10 years the potential is there to dwarf Korea. |
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kiknkorea
Joined: 16 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| brento1138 wrote: |
In 10-15 years from now, a huge majority of the E2 visas will be replaced by the very students we taught!
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This depends on the quality of education they received. Many foreign teachers spend their time playing hangman or bomb games. That doesn't mean the occasional one is bad...but there have been foreign teachers here for over 20 years now. There is still not much change. The majority of teachers here are not qualified or trained. Sure everyone likes to boast how how popular they are and how much their students learn.
The thing is that becoming fluent in a language takes years of constant progressive practice. You could be a great teacher...but the guys before you and the ones after you could be incompetent unqualified bozos. The constantly revolving door of this business ensures that only a few students here and there will improve their English to the point where they can teach it competently.
Heck there are Korean English teachers who have been teaching this for 20 years or more, go to every English seminar they can and still are forced to resort to explaining 90% of the class in Korean.
Sure there are exceptions to all of the above...but they are exceptions. |
Great post TUM.
I'm always amazed at how low the bar is set here for teachers.
The majority of the ones I've met who teach kids just see how little teaching they can do while seeing how many games and movies they can get away with playing. And yes, those can and do serve a purpose, but when they're just seeing how much time they can kill until the end of each day there's something wrong.
As for the industry here, I see a modest decline, but no big changes in the next decade. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Several Koreans have lived abroad, came back, and are now speaking without Korean accents. Many of them are looking for decent paying jobs. In 10-15 years from now, a huge majority of the E2 visas will be replaced by the very students we taught! |
I doubt it, Koreans don't get paid as well as westerners. So for them it won't be a high paying job until attitudes change
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| So, even the Koreans will have to learn mandarin in the future. |
No, they really won't. The Chinese are already learning English, so are the Koreans. They do their business in English. The same happens in Japan and anywhere else they go.
I know a couple dozen koreans who regularly travel to China, Japan and Europe (France, italy, England) and all their business is done in English everywhere.
That's not going to change because china becomes a little more important. |
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SinclairLondon
Joined: 17 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Heck there are Korean English teachers who have been teaching this for 20 years or more, go to every English seminar they can and still are forced to resort to explaining 90% of the class in Korean.
Sure there are exceptions to all of the above...but they are exceptions.
Great post TUM.
I'm always amazed at how low the bar is set here for teachers.
The majority of the ones I've met who teach kids just see how little teaching they can do while seeing how many games and movies they can get away with playing. And yes, those can and do serve a purpose, but when they're just seeing how much time they can kill until the end of each day there's something wrong. |
In my area, there is an adult English academy that boasts an enrollement of around 1,000 students. Several floors, cafe at the bottom, even has an English-only dorm where he crams the college kids in like Chinese exchange students and makes a huge profit. Most of his classes, from my understanding, still use rote memorization and teach for the test, and he runs the school like a dictator. He's very successful as many of his students do well on TOEIC and have a need to be treated like $hit.
Their kids will be your students in ten years. Don't worry. |
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jdog2050
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
Way back in '99 (just after the IMF bailout) there were about 6000 foreign teachers in Korea (from a low of 1800 at the end of '97).
It has steadily grown to the current state of about 30,000 E2s being issued last year.
Will ESL in Korea disappear any time in the near future = no.
Are government programs scaling back = yes (sort of).
GEPIK is trimming 200 positions from their current 2300 NETS.
EPIK is doing something similar.
Even with the trimmed recruitment levels there are still more NETS working at public schools now (and into the near future) than the TOTAL of NETS working in Korea a decade ago.
I honestly believe that the recruitment levels WILL drop down to about something close to 20,000 E2s over the next few years and maintain at that level.
The demand for NETS in the rest of Asia will continue to grow. China is expecting a demand for more than a 1/2 MILLION new ESL teachers over the next decade. (sounds like a lot but not when you consider it against a population of over 1.3 billion 20% of which, 260 million, are of school age; an average of 1 NET for 5200 kids over 10 years).
AS things improve economically in the west over the next 5 years we will also see a LARGE drop in the number of grads who will be willing to come to Korea as teachers.
So I guess, after all that rambling, to answer the OPs original question; You have no fear. There will be a job for you in the near and mid term. The pay and benefits packages will remain stagnant but there will be work.
. |
If there's going to be actual change, I believe it will be demographic rather than cultural or methodological. Flat out, Koreans just aren't pumping out kids at the same rate as they were. They almost have the lowest birth rate in the world, I believe.
So, less kids equals less students for Hagwons. Not only that, but people are having kids later; they will also be much more affluent and selfish. Maybe they won't even send their kids to Hagwons as they will be the generation that experienced the boredom and ennui that that system perpetuates.
So will there be nets in 10 years? Yes, but much more scaled back. I'd say get into adult teaching and industry specific business english. |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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So why did I post this question?
Well, I'm wondering if it's worth going out and getting an MATESOL, or a CELTA, or a Teaching Certificate.
A teaching certificate would cost me about $40,000 + no income for almost a year. But it would offer the most flexibility
A MATESOL would cost me $20,000 and a giant two year headache.
A CELTA would cost $3000 + likely two months salary.
Is it worth learning Korean? (So time consuming!)
To be honest, I'm not interested in schooling. I would simply do it for employment reasons. A necessary evil, perhaps.
What will the working environment be like here in 5 years? In 10?
Is it soon becoming time to move on to China? Why spend thousands of hours learning Korean when it's wiser to learn Mandarin?
I can't say I have any answers yet. Just things to ponder. |
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tideout
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| bobbybigfoot wrote: |
So why did I post this question?
Well, I'm wondering if it's worth going out and getting an MATESOL, or a CELTA, or a Teaching Certificate.
A teaching certificate would cost me about $40,000 + no income for almost a year. But it would offer the most flexibility
A MATESOL would cost me $20,000 and a giant two year headache.
A CELTA would cost $3000 + likely two months salary.
Is it worth learning Korean? (So time consuming!)
To be honest, I'm not interested in schooling. I would simply do it for employment reasons. A necessary evil, perhaps.
What will the working environment be like here in 5 years? In 10?
Is it soon becoming time to move on to China? Why spend thousands of hours learning Korean when it's wiser to learn Mandarin?
I can't say I have any answers yet. Just things to ponder. |
Just curious - how old are you? Do you have a lot of working years left?
I had a long career prior to doing ESL. I worked a bit in Latin America and came last year to Korea. I corresponded not long ago with someone who has a MA TESOL degree and he confessed to never even putting it on resume. It either left employers worried he'd want to much money or it just didn't matter for getting the job. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:55 am Post subject: |
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CELTA is US$2000 (including living expenses) in BKK.
A decent MATESOL is about US$15k and you can do it while you work.
A teaching cert (Post Graduate Certificate in Education) takes about a year (full time including your practicum) and will cost about $20k (unless of course you are from the states).
In all cases except the CELTA they lead far beyond the basic ESL job.
ALL 3 have different career paths.
Bottom line = what do you want to do.
Uni lecturer, academic research, teach kids in a real school (not ESL), teach ESL; pick one (or more) ?
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