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bigpun
Joined: 16 May 2007
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Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Apples to Oranges... |
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Thiuda wrote: |
bigpun wrote: |
Yonsei isn't in the same league as those others as far as their two campuses compare, at least in terms of English Education. Wonju was by far and away the poor sister - and the latest knee-jerk reaction by the administration is supposed to fix all that. The details are all my upcoming expose! I want to be like Naturegirl and ZD when I grow up! Permission to PM? |
From what I understand, Yonsei has decided to bring Wonju campus into line with its Seoul Campus. The salary has increased substantially, from 2.4 mill a month to 3.5 mill a month and the hours went from 24h/w to 15h/w. In addition, vac went from 12 weeks to 20. I don't know the ins-and-outs of the situation, but the new NTP contracts look pretty sweet. |
Yes, that is how it is supposed to be, but bears little resemblence to reality, at least for next year. Here are some of the ins and outs. The credit English speaking courses at Yonsei Sinchon are run through their own University Department, with faculty with graduate degrees, who may be referred to as NTPs (Non-Tenured Professors), while at Wonju the classes are run through the language institute (IEC) and were mostly taught by Instructors. The new positions that were offered this hiring session are a radical departure from the past in terms of salary and hours, but the new NTPs are still working under the Language Institute. There remains no clear plan to set up a proper university Department, or set up a proper selection of elective courses. The core program has changed a bit - no more mandatory TOEIC Listening for students, replaced by a piecemeal writing course for upper years, but nothing else by way of changes. The new NTPs are expected to contribute to program development, which of course isn't a bad thing. But there are other aspects to the new position which may not be so palatable. For example, other top schools will pay overtime for their short semesters for make-up classes during the vacations, but Yonsei will not, even for the NTPs. During the short semesters they must be available for 3 weeks for make-up classes (which is a lot better than being required to be available for 5 weeks - covering camps and language institute classes - that Instrctors are contracted for.) Vacation time is actually 16 weeks, not 20, and even that may be broken - upwards of a week between regular and short semesters, followed by the 3 weeks of duty, then the long vacation.) I was going to hold off on more details in this thread, but you made some interesting observations about working hours and salary. I mean, basically this job went from being a real "entry-level" unigwon job to being one one of the most attractive ones on offer. So I'll give you some more background.
Couple of things about the NTP contract - the wage offered is significantly higher than before, but it isn't the first time it's been seen. There was an old version of the NTP contract for some working there, with a higher base but no severance (nothing close to 3.5; more like 2.6ish - essentially NTPs were being paid exactly the same salary as Instructors, but in 12 installments rather than 13), fewer hours, and a private pension plan (which was basically the same 50/50 arrangement that the National Pension required.) These contracts were introduced a few years ago, and stipulated that after 5 years the university would increase its share of the pension contributions (which meant a bigger pension for NTPs if they stayed on long enough.) At the start of this past academic year the University decided that they would end these old NTP contracts at the end of the year, just as the first few NTPs would become eligible for a higher pension. This meant that those on NTP contracts this year, if they wanted to come back, would have to sign Instructor contracts, accept a drop in base pay and an increase in hours at the end of their current contracts, and lose the promise of a higher pension through the private pension plan. This was in addition to a change in contracts for Instructors, which dropped the raise to 2.4mil from 2 years ago back to the old base of 2.2mil for people starting this past year.
This new NTP contract actually came out of the blue. The IEC advertized Instructor positions on Eslcafe and at the KOTESOL conference this past Fall, but all these ads vanished over that weekend and the new ad for NTPs was online early the next week. This whole idea of bringing the poor stepsister campus up to higher standards was not exactly well thought out. And this is just part of the story here. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Location: Home sweet home
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Apples to Oranges... |
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olsanairbase wrote: |
If you were planning to go into Higher Education Administration then you should be going for a degree in that instead of in the primary and secondary levels as your degree indicates.
But I am sure whatever you learned in those two courses of "Leading and Managing Learning Organisations" is the comparable equivalency of what I just listed above. |
ONce again, this MA covers primary, secondary, and teritary. While all your info that you copied and pasted sounds fantastic, you neglected to mention, or conveniently forget, that is from this link, http://education.odu.edu/efl/academics/educational/ed_leadership_phd.shtml , which is for a PhD.
Different. MA vs PhD. the info you provided has more courses and is more difficult than an MA.
So to answer you, it's a comparable stepping stone, but not a substitue for a PhD. No MA is. And right now, I dont' want a PhD.
bigpun wrote: |
SKKU and Yonsei have had very different approaches to their two different campuses - SKKU makes no distinction between instructors at their two campuses, offering the same pay and conditions. So do Korea Univeristy and Hongik University - Hongik offers even more money to those working at their rural campus, but conditions there are much more...primitive. Yonsei isn't in the same league as those others as far as their two campuses compare, at least in terms of English Education. Wonju was by far and away the poor sister - and the latest knee-jerk reaction by the administration is supposed to fix all that. The details are all my upcoming expose! I want to be like Naturegirl and ZD when I grow up! Permission to PM? |
Sure, PM away. I didn't know that Hongik in Jochiwon didn't have good conditions. Korea Uni has similar conditions in Jochiwon than it does in Seoul then? |
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olsanairbase
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Apples to Oranges... |
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naturegirl321 wrote: |
olsanairbase wrote: |
If you were planning to go into Higher Education Administration then you should be going for a degree in that instead of in the primary and secondary levels as your degree indicates.
But I am sure whatever you learned in those two courses of "Leading and Managing Learning Organisations" is the comparable equivalency of what I just listed above. |
ONce again, this MA covers primary, secondary, and teritary. While all your info that you copied and pasted sounds fantastic, you neglected to mention, or conveniently forget, that is from this link, http://education.odu.edu/efl/academics/educational/ed_leadership_phd.shtml , which is for a PhD.
Different. MA vs PhD. the info you provided has more courses and is more difficult than an MA.
So to answer you, it's a comparable stepping stone, but not a substitue for a PhD. No MA is. And right now, I dont' want a PhD.
bigpun wrote: |
SKKU and Yonsei have had very different approaches to their two different campuses - SKKU makes no distinction between instructors at their two campuses, offering the same pay and conditions. So do Korea Univeristy and Hongik University - Hongik offers even more money to those working at their rural campus, but conditions there are much more...primitive. Yonsei isn't in the same league as those others as far as their two campuses compare, at least in terms of English Education. Wonju was by far and away the poor sister - and the latest knee-jerk reaction by the administration is supposed to fix all that. The details are all my upcoming expose! I want to be like Naturegirl and ZD when I grow up! Permission to PM? |
Sure, PM away. I didn't know that Hongik in Jochiwon didn't have good conditions. Korea Uni has similar conditions in Jochiwon than it does in Seoul then? |
First, the link you say I cut and pasted from is wrong. The information I posted from was the program University of North Texas not the school you cited. Here's the correct link:
http://www.unt.edu/pais/grad/gdhied.htm
But since you insist on using that school for comparison lets use that instead.
Taking a look at the school its obvious you didn't bother to look at that school's MA in Ed or even its advanced certification program- both of which are more substantive than your 1 year MA program and both of which carry more than 2 generic classes on leadership. So your argument, that its solely because the program is a PhD and not an MA program doesn't fly. Your Masters Degree doesn't equal the same amount of work put into their certificate program, let alone their MA or PhD.
The MA Program
Quote: |
Higher Education- Student Affairs Administration
Required Courses (27 credit hours)
FOUN 611
Introduction to Research
COUN 707
College Student and Adult Development Theory
HIED 708
Contemporary Issues in Higher Education
HIED 710
Introduction to Student Affairs Administration
HIED 733
Professional Helping Skills in Higher Education
HIED 745
Contemporary College Student
HIED 752
The Law of Higher Education
HIED 757
The Multicultural University
HIED 761
Higher Education Capstone
Cognate Courses (9 credit hours)
COUN 648
Career Development
COUN 655
Social and Cultural Issues in Counseling
FOUN 722
Introduction to Applied Statistics and Data Analysis
FOUN 813
Advanced Program Assessment and Evaluation
HIED 711
Higher Education and Society
HIED 712
Strategic Planning and Institutional Effectiveness
HIED 720
The Private College and University
HIED 730
Seminar in Student Affairs Administration
HIED 731
Group Dynamics in Higher Education
HIED 737
Academic Issues in Higher Education
HIED 743
Introduction to International Higher Education Administration
HIED 744
Comparative Higher Education Systems
HIED 756
Higher Education Finance
HIED 757
The Multicultural University
HIED 758
Leadership in Higher Education
HIED 759
Higher Education Curriculum
HIED 762
Development and Fund Raising
HIED 763
Case Studies in Higher Education Management
HIED 764
The College and University Presidenc
HIED 765
Adult and Continuing Education
HIED 766
The Modern Community College
HIED 793
History of Higher Education in the U.S.
HIED 794
Organization and Administration of Higher Educatio
HIED 795
Special Topics in Higher Education
CCL 820
Community College Leadership
CCL 824
Community College Finance
CCL 826
Community College Curriculum
Internships (6 credit hours)
HIED 668 A Internship One
HIED 668 B Internship Two
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Certificate program
Quote: |
Program of Study
Course Requirements: (18 credit hours):
ELS 835 Organizational Behavior in Education
ELS 853 Public School Finance
ELS 871 Educational Systems, Planning, and Futures
ELS 876 Ethics, Integrity, and Social Justice in Education
ELS 878 Leadership for Teaching and Learning
ELS 879 Field Research in School Administration and Supervision
Elective Courses: (12 credit hours)
ELS 811 Leadership Theory for School Improvement
ELS 855 Political Systems, Legislation, and Urban Education
ELS 864 History and Philosophy of American Public School Reform
ELS 877 Staff Development
ELS 880 Multicultural Curriculum Leadership and Globalization
ELS 883 Contemporary Issues in Education
Total Credits: 30
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Compared to your 1 year MA program
Quote: |
Course structure
Units for appellation
Trimester 1
ECV705 Learning and Development in Organisations (X)
ECV711 Training for Diverse Learners and Contexts (X)
Trimester 2
EEN706 Lifelong Learning (X)
ECV704 Expanding Ideas of Competency (X)
ECV712 Situated Learning At Work (X)
Generic units
The three generic units focus on contemporary educational and training issues which can be applied to any specialist study and are designed to be compatible with online technologies and to complement the specialist units. Each generic unit may be tailored toward the specialist interests of the student.
Trimester 1
EXE731 Advancing Professional Development (B, X)
EXE737 Leading and Managing Learning Organisations (B, X)
Trimester 2
EXE735 Evaluation: Improvement and Accountability (B, X)
EXE737 Leading and Managing Learning Organisations (B, X)
Total of 21 units (that's 9 units less than the certificate program listed above)
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But then again you think U. of Phoenix and other online degrees are respected so I don't even see why I am bothering trying to speak reason to you.
Last edited by olsanairbase on Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:45 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Apples to Oranges... |
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bigpun wrote: |
This whole idea of bringing the poor stepsister campus up to higher standards was not exactly well thought out. And this is just part of the story here. |
Thanks for the info. I was told that there might be some resentment towards the incoming NTPs and now I see why. Too bad, because from what I can tell, as an outsider coming into the IEC, the supervisors are very professional and take their jobs quite seriously.
Best wishes. |
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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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olsanairbase wrote: |
The MA Program
Quote: |
Higher Education- Student Affairs Administration
Required Courses (27 credit hours)
FOUN 611
Introduction to Research
COUN 707
College Student and Adult Development Theory
HIED 708
Contemporary Issues in Higher Education
HIED 710
Introduction to Student Affairs Administration
HIED 733
Professional Helping Skills in Higher Education
HIED 745
Contemporary College Student
HIED 752
The Law of Higher Education
HIED 757
The Multicultural University
HIED 761
Higher Education Capstone
Cognate Courses (9 credit hours)
COUN 648
Career Development
COUN 655
Social and Cultural Issues in Counseling
FOUN 722
Introduction to Applied Statistics and Data Analysis
FOUN 813
Advanced Program Assessment and Evaluation
HIED 711
Higher Education and Society
HIED 712
Strategic Planning and Institutional Effectiveness
HIED 720
The Private College and University
HIED 730
Seminar in Student Affairs Administration
HIED 731
Group Dynamics in Higher Education
HIED 737
Academic Issues in Higher Education
HIED 743
Introduction to International Higher Education Administration
HIED 744
Comparative Higher Education Systems
HIED 756
Higher Education Finance
HIED 757
The Multicultural University
HIED 758
Leadership in Higher Education
HIED 759
Higher Education Curriculum
HIED 762
Development and Fund Raising
HIED 763
Case Studies in Higher Education Management
HIED 764
The College and University Presidenc
HIED 765
Adult and Continuing Education
HIED 766
The Modern Community College
HIED 793
History of Higher Education in the U.S.
HIED 794
Organization and Administration of Higher Educatio
HIED 795
Special Topics in Higher Education
CCL 820
Community College Leadership
CCL 824
Community College Finance
CCL 826
Community College Curriculum
Internships (6 credit hours)
HIED 668 A Internship One
HIED 668 B Internship Two
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Certificate program
Quote: |
Program of Study
Course Requirements: (18 credit hours):
ELS 835 Organizational Behavior in Education
ELS 853 Public School Finance
ELS 871 Educational Systems, Planning, and Futures
ELS 876 Ethics, Integrity, and Social Justice in Education
ELS 878 Leadership for Teaching and Learning
ELS 879 Field Research in School Administration and Supervision
Elective Courses: (12 credit hours)
ELS 811 Leadership Theory for School Improvement
ELS 855 Political Systems, Legislation, and Urban Education
ELS 864 History and Philosophy of American Public School Reform
ELS 877 Staff Development
ELS 880 Multicultural Curriculum Leadership and Globalization
ELS 883 Contemporary Issues in Education
Total Credits: 30
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Compared to your 1 year MA program
Quote: |
Course structure
Units for appellation
Trimester 1
ECV705 Learning and Development in Organisations (X)
ECV711 Training for Diverse Learners and Contexts (X)
Trimester 2
EEN706 Lifelong Learning (X)
ECV704 Expanding Ideas of Competency (X)
ECV712 Situated Learning At Work (X)
Generic units
The three generic units focus on contemporary educational and training issues which can be applied to any specialist study and are designed to be compatible with online technologies and to complement the specialist units. Each generic unit may be tailored toward the specialist interests of the student.
Trimester 1
EXE731 Advancing Professional Development (B, X)
EXE737 Leading and Managing Learning Organisations (B, X)
Trimester 2
EXE735 Evaluation: Improvement and Accountability (B, X)
EXE737 Leading and Managing Learning Organisations (B, X)
Total of 21 units (that's 9 units less than the certificate program listed above)
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But then again you think U. of Phoenix and other online degrees are respected so I don't even see why I am bothering trying to speak reason to you. |
I am not trying to jump into the fray here, but from that list of courses for the MA program you wrote....only 27 credits are needed. Sure, there is a long list of choices, but I don't think you are really proving or disproving anything here. Maybe that there are a more extensive list of offerings, but I wouldn't say that makes the degree more exhaustive. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Location: Home sweet home
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Carbon wrote: |
I am not trying to jump into the fray here, but from that list of courses for the MA program you wrote....only 27 credits are needed. Sure, there is a long list of choices, but I don't think you are really proving or disproving anything here. Maybe that there are a more extensive list of offerings, but I wouldn't say that makes the degree more exhaustive. |
Yep, thanks. So 9 courses. Mine is 8 courses. Basically the same. Thanks for your support. |
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olsanairbase
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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naturegirl321 wrote: |
My second degree is in secondary and higher admin. Australian schools have a different system with TAFE, colleges, unis, training schools, etc. I could also get into training in the business sector as well, it's a master in Professional Education and Training, here's what you can do.
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naturegirl321 wrote: |
Carbon wrote: |
I am not trying to jump into the fray here, but from that list of courses for the MA program you wrote....only 27 credits are needed. Sure, there is a long list of choices, but I don't think you are really proving or disproving anything here. Maybe that there are a more extensive list of offerings, but I wouldn't say that makes the degree more exhaustive. |
Yep, thanks. So 9 courses. Mine is 8 courses. Basically the same. Thanks for your support. |
The comparison wasn't just quantitative but it was qualitative. Maybe had you taken a course in research statistics you would have realized that point of comparison. Qualitatively you only have two classes in higher education management in your program whereas the other programs (including the certificate program) are entirely geared toward higher education administration. Two classes that you may or may not have taken because they were not even (core/required) classes in your degree program hardly demonstrates a concentration in that area. |
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bigpun
Joined: 16 May 2007
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Apples to Oranges... |
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Thiuda wrote: |
bigpun wrote: |
This whole idea of bringing the poor stepsister campus up to higher standards was not exactly well thought out. And this is just part of the story here. |
Thanks for the info. I was told that there might be some resentment towards the incoming NTPs and now I see why. Too bad, because from what I can tell, as an outsider coming into the IEC, the supervisors are very professional and take their jobs quite seriously.
Best wishes. |
Resentment is too strong a word, but in effect the incoming NTPs are already being segregated. It's difficult to see the kind of work environment that existed in the past continuing. At least the Instructors who had moved up to double apartments weren't asked to vacate them for those coming in. The supervisors, each one of them, are exceptional. The ones who are staying on for next semester, I may have disagreed with some of their managerial approaches but I know how hard the position is. If you would like to know more, you are welcome to PM me your email address and I can try to fill in some more details. |
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bigpun
Joined: 16 May 2007
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: PM malfunction |
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Naturegirl, thanks for the PM, but I don't got enough status to send one back yet. I'll get in touch eventually... |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Location: Home sweet home
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:40 am Post subject: |
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olsanairbase wrote: |
The comparison wasn't just quantitative but it was qualitative. Maybe had you taken a course in research statistics you would have realized that point of comparison. Qualitatively you only have two classes in higher education management in your program whereas the other programs (including the certificate program) are entirely geared toward higher education administration. Two classes that you may or may not have taken because they were not even (core/required) classes in your degree program hardly demonstrates a concentration in that area. |
My first MA had 2 research courses, a 10,000 thesis and practicum,
It also got me my job at my current uni, one of the top in Korea. . .
bigpun wrote: |
Naturegirl, thanks for the PM, but I don't got enough status to send one back yet. I'll get in touch eventually... |
I sent you my email.
Thiuda wrote: |
From what I understand, Yonsei has decided to bring Wonju campus into line with its Seoul Campus. The salary has increased substantially, from 2.4 mill a month to 3.5 mill a month and the hours went from 24h/w to 15h/w. In addition, vac went from 12 weeks to 20. I don't know the ins-and-outs of the situation, but the new NTP contracts look pretty sweet. |
That sounds great. I bet they'll get more applicants. |
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olsanairbase
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:01 am Post subject: |
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naturegirl321 wrote: |
bobbybigfoot wrote: |
I'd go for a PhD before I'd do a second MA.
G'luck to you. |
I'm doing a second MA. My first was from Spain and an MA in TEFL. My second is going to be from Australia and will be in Professional Education and Training (admin)
Why am I doing a second MA? Couple reasons.
1. Getting an apostillised copy of my MA took 9 months and cost 700 euros. for one apostillised copy. ONE!
2. It's only a matter of time before degrees from non-English countries won't be accepted, despite the fact that my 16 course with thesis degree was all in English. The degree itself isn't.
3. I want to get into admin .
4. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever do to a PhD
5. Ever! |
naturegirl321 wrote: |
olsanairbase wrote: |
The comparison wasn't just quantitative but it was qualitative. Maybe had you taken a course in research statistics you would have realized that point of comparison. Qualitatively you only have two classes in higher education management in your program whereas the other programs (including the certificate program) are entirely geared toward higher education administration. Two classes that you may or may not have taken because they were not even (core/required) classes in your degree program hardly demonstrates a concentration in that area. |
My first MA had 2 research courses, a 10,000 thesis and practicum,
It also got me my job at my current uni, one of the top in Korea. . .
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You stated that you wanted to get into higher education administration. Yet, you completed a Masters Degree program primarily geared toward instruction not toward higher education administration. Again, taking two courses from your generic portion of your degree is not a basis for a academic foundation in higher ed admin. 99.9% of those who hire people in higher education administration positions would reject your application outright on that assertion alone.
If you really wanted to do Higher Ed Administration then maybe you should have thought about completing a degree that focused on that particular area. I think its kind of scary to know that you feel you can advise others to do the same when its quite clear you have utterly no clue yourself what you are experienced to do. Also, I still haven't figured out what you mean by a 10,000 thesis. Does it mean word count? Because word count is not something people use as a measurement in thesis writing.
Last edited by olsanairbase on Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:14 am; edited 4 times in total |
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blobbo
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:07 am Post subject: |
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MA TESOL from what I can see can get you some really good jobs - if you want to work in the middle east that is. It can get you a university job here in Korea. It hasn't got all that much history - what is it? 10 years old if that? There isn't that many people with it so getting MA TESOL will seperate you from 90% of the teachers out there. Worth the money if you want to upgrade your job search to the plum positions in the gulf. |
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bigpun
Joined: 16 May 2007
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Thiuda, Thanks for PM, still haven't accrued enough credit to reply - I'll glady send an email if you send an address.
Naturegirl, thanks for the email address, it isn't urgent but I'll send you something soon. |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010 Location: South Korea
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Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Actually I have never heard about a 10,000 word Thesis. Only Dissertation. At My University, a Masters Thesis was quite long (40,000 - 80,000 words???) and the PhD Thesis was supposed to be nearing 100,000 words. But as the poster says there really isn't a word count per se for a thesis.
I heard that Noam Chomsky handed in his PhD thesis in his early 20's and it was all of 20 pages in length. At least that is what my professor said. It is not about work count but the quality and it also depends on the topic and method of research.
With that all saod I DID hear about word counts for dissertations. I suspect this is what the person meant. In my uni a one paper Dissertation was 10,000 words, 2 paper disertation 20,000 words and so on up to an 8-paper 2 year one for approximately 80,000 words. We could replace any course with a one paper dissertation if we wished subject to approval of our planned topic. |
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olsanairbase
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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liveinkorea316 wrote: |
Actually I have never heard about a 10,000 word Thesis. Only Dissertation. At My University, a Masters Thesis was quite long (40,000 - 80,000 words???) and the PhD Thesis was supposed to be nearing 100,000 words. But as the poster says there really isn't a word count per se for a thesis.
I heard that Noam Chomsky handed in his PhD thesis in his early 20's and it was all of 20 pages in length. At least that is what my professor said. It is not about work count but the quality and it also depends on the topic and method of research.
With that all saod I DID hear about word counts for dissertations. I suspect this is what the person meant. In my uni a one paper Dissertation was 10,000 words, 2 paper disertation 20,000 words and so on up to an 8-paper 2 year one for approximately 80,000 words. We could replace any course with a one paper dissertation if we wished subject to approval of our planned topic. |
Naturegirl could have written a 1,000,000 word dissertation on Higher Education Administration and it still wouldn't have qualified her to do that line of work. She simply hasn't completed related coursework to support such a publication in educational administration- let alone higher ed administration. |
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