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What exactly does a "clean background check" mean?
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jrwhite82



Joined: 22 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: What exactly does a "clean background check" m Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
[quote="jrwhite82]
You need to understand proportionality.




Indeed. Gotta love how when somebody makes a comment about how people shouldn't get an E-2 others start screeching hysterically about how that means said somebody wants to deny the offenders employment everywhere. And for the rest of their lives to boot.

Get a grip. Stating one's opinion about the suitability of someone for the E-2 visa does not equate to denying one employment for the rest of their lives. And anyway so what? No one has that power...certainly not any poster on Dave's anyway. If Korea is not an option there are lots of other countries...it does certainly say a lot about people's worldview that saying someone shouldn't work in Korea is immediately and hysterically elevated to not being allowed to work at all.

That said, I don't think trespassing(in this particular case) is a major offence and the OP should certainly get his chance to teach here...just like the rest of us. He (or she) should look into getting it expunged or something like that.

Good luck OP.[/quote]

Not only that, but I want to hang him or cut people's hands off! Gwangjuboy, you sure have a flare for the dramatic. I'll give you that. Laughing

But TUM, you're actually quite wrong because there are a number of work visas a person can get for Korea that don't require a CBC. The only thing marginalizing them from getting them is their experience and education/work background. So if they really want to come here, they have many options to choose from that don't involve the E-2 and still allow them to come to Korea legally to have gainful employment with a mark on their CBC. So there is no need to send them to another country....unless they want to work as a teacher. Then they have to get their record expunged. In which case, if they can't, they can blame their own country and not Korean Immigration.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just get annoyed by the people who are harsher on people who have offended than the Korean government is, i.e. "If you have ever committed a crime how dare you even consider teaching children."
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: What exactly does a "clean background check" m Reply with quote

jrwhite82 wrote:


Not only that, but I want to hang him or cut people's hands off! Gwangjuboy, you sure have a flare for the dramatic. I'll give you that. Laughing



There is nothing dramatic about it. I was giving you an example of your logic. Let's recall what you said:

Quote:

But in this increasingly competitive labor market, shouldn't the employees take some initiative and stop breaking laws and getting records?


Logically, there is no difference between what you wrote there and the following sentence:

'In this kind of environment shouldn't the thieves stop breaking laws? They know that stealing will result in the amputation of hand so they only have themselves to blame'.

Your logic is easy to define; if someone knows the consequences of their actions then they should accept the punishment when it is meted out. The difference between us is that I believe that people should be punished proportionate to their transgression. If you simply said that part of the punishment should include a lifelong record of his offence you would be on safer ground logically, although I would still disagree with your opinion. Do you think it should stay on his record in perpetuity?
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jrwhite82



Joined: 22 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except I'm asking someone to have a piece of paper with their name on it and the crimes they've committed. You're saying that I condone forced amputation and the death penalty. If you don't see the difference there, then I don't know what to tell you.

Andyes, I do feel that it is ok to have this piece of paper. Sure trespassing doesn't really apply to teaching...but what if he wanted to work for the rail company? What if he wants to be a security guard? If you were hiring someone for any of those positions, wouldn't that be information you would find useful in determining employment?

Again, it just boils down to liability. I feel like a broken record. There is already a mechanism in place to remove small infractions from your record. This system was designed for cases just like this, so people who have committed crimes can regain their right to vote in some states, or to own firearms again, etc...The OP should have started this process long ago.

If he doesn't want to expunge it, then there are many other visas he can obtain to get a job in Korea. There are many jobs out there that don't require a CBC.
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jurassic82



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Location: Somewhere!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A clean record from the FBI should state "No Arrest Record." At least that is what mine said. I had a MIP (Minor in Possession of Alcohol) from when I was 18 and a drinking in public ticket (Tailgating before a football game) on my record. Both misdameanors but neither of them showed up on my record because I was never arrested. I am not sure what will get a person denied a work VISA. I have known several friends and coworkers who have had DUI's on ther erecord and had no problem getting a VISA. I have never known a person to get denied a VISA because of a criminal offense and I have been here for 5 years now. I wouldn't stress it. I am sure they are looking for drug and sex offenses. Good Luck! Cool
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: What exactly does a "clean background check" m Reply with quote

jrwhite82 wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
[quote="jrwhite82]
You need to understand proportionality.




Indeed. Gotta love how when somebody makes a comment about how people shouldn't get]an E-2] others start screeching hysterically about how that means said somebody wants to deny the offenders employment everywhere. And for the rest of their lives to boot.

Get a grip. Stating one's opinion about the suitability of someone for the E-2 visa does not equate to denying one employment for the rest of their lives. And anyway so what? No one has that power...certainly not any poster on Dave's anyway. If Korea is not an option there are lots of other countries...it does certainly say a lot about people's worldview that saying someone shouldn't work in Korea is immediately and hysterically elevated to not being allowed to work at all.

That said, I don't think trespassing(in this particular case) is a major offence and the OP should certainly get his chance to teach here...just like the rest of us. He (or she) should look into getting it expunged or something like that.

Good luck OP.


Quote:
Not only that, but I want to hang him or cut people's hands off! Gwangjuboy, you sure have a flare for the dramatic. I'll give you that. Laughing

But TUM, you're actually quite wrong because there are a number of work visas a person can get for Korea that don't require a CBC. .


Where did I say otherwise? I even specifically mentioned the E-2 visa twice in my post above so it would be clear what I was referring to.
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrwhite82 wrote:
Except I'm asking someone to have a piece of paper with their name on it and the crimes they've committed. You're saying that I condone forced amputation and the death penalty. If you don't see the difference there, then I don't know what to tell you.


Where did I say that you condoned amputation? Seriously, please show me that. I was simply carrying your logic through to its natural conclusion : that's very different from saying that you condoned it. Hopefully, now you will recognise the flaws in your logic. If someone knows the negative consequences of their actions beforehand, but nevertheless engages in that behaviour anyway, then you can, applying your logic, exact any punishment against them, and rationalise it.

Quote:

Andyes, I do feel that it is ok to have this piece of paper. Sure trespassing doesn't really apply to teaching...but what if he wanted to work for the rail company? What if he wants to be a security guard? If you were hiring someone for any of those positions, wouldn't that be information you would find useful in determining employment?


If I was an employer there are all sorts of things that I might want to know, but whether I have any business knowing is another question all together. There are some offences for which the recidivist rates are extremely high, and understandably a consensus has emerged that we ought to allow employers to know this information. However, we also know that the stigma attached to crime can lead to reduced opportunities for offenders, contributing to increases in recidivism for crimes that are more closely linked to poverty and social exclusion than inherent tendancies. In that regard, it reaches a point where it is economically and socially harmful to force the disclosure of most crimes in perpetuity. This is a simple principle that you appear not to understand.

Quote:

There is already a mechanism in place to remove small infractions from your record. This system was designed for cases just like this, so people who have committed crimes can regain their right to vote in some states, or to own firearms again, etc...The OP should have started this process long ago.


This is true I believe, in parts of the US at least, but in many other countries this is not the case.
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yoja



Joined: 30 May 2008

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I for one condone amputation. And not only in cases of stealing, either. If more people had their hands cut off, I wouldn't have to read half the nonsense that gets posted here.
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jrwhite82



Joined: 22 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: What exactly does a "clean background check" m Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
jrwhite82 wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
[quote="jrwhite82]
You need to understand proportionality.




Indeed. Gotta love how when somebody makes a comment about how people shouldn't get]an E-2] others start screeching hysterically about how that means said somebody wants to deny the offenders employment everywhere. And for the rest of their lives to boot.

Get a grip. Stating one's opinion about the suitability of someone for the E-2 visa does not equate to denying one employment for the rest of their lives. And anyway so what? No one has that power...certainly not any poster on Dave's anyway. If Korea is not an option there are lots of other countries...it does certainly say a lot about people's worldview that saying someone shouldn't work in Korea is immediately and hysterically elevated to not being allowed to work at all.

That said, I don't think trespassing(in this particular case) is a major offence and the OP should certainly get his chance to teach here...just like the rest of us. He (or she) should look into getting it expunged or something like that.

Good luck OP.


Quote:
Not only that, but I want to hang him or cut people's hands off! Gwangjuboy, you sure have a flare for the dramatic. I'll give you that. Laughing

But TUM, you're actually quite wrong because there are a number of work visas a person can get for Korea that don't require a CBC. .


Where did I say otherwise? I even specifically mentioned the E-2 visa twice in my post above so it would be clear what I was referring to.


TUM, I actually agree with you fully, but you said something along the lines of " if Korea is not an option, there are countless other countries..." Which is absolutely true. All I was saying, is that Korea is still an attainable option, even for an E2 by getting your record expunged or by getting a different visa. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoja wrote:
Well, I for one condone amputation. And not only in cases of stealing, either. If more people had their hands cut off, I wouldn't have to read half the nonsense that gets posted here.


Just banning them from the internet would be more proportionate. Of course, we don't want to deprive them of opportunities in perpetuity so at some point we can let them rejoin the cyber community without having to disclose their dodgy intellectual past. Naturally, where lapses in commitment to objectivity persist permanent records will be kept.
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jrwhite82



Joined: 22 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gwangjuboy wrote:
jrwhite82 wrote:
Except I'm asking someone to have a piece of paper with their name on it and the crimes they've committed. You're saying that I condone forced amputation and the death penalty. If you don't see the difference there, then I don't know what to tell you.


Where did I say that you condoned amputation? Seriously, please show me that. I was simply carrying your logic through to its natural conclusion : that's very different from saying that you condoned it. Hopefully, now you will recognise the flaws in your logic. If someone knows the negative consequences of their actions beforehand, but nevertheless engages in that behaviour anyway, then you can, applying your logic, exact any punishment against them, and rationalise it.

Quote:

Andyes, I do feel that it is ok to have this piece of paper. Sure trespassing doesn't really apply to teaching...but what if he wanted to work for the rail company? What if he wants to be a security guard? If you were hiring someone for any of those positions, wouldn't that be information you would find useful in determining employment?


If I was an employer there are all sorts of things that I might want to know, but whether I have any business knowing is another question all together. There are some offences for which the recidivist rates are extremely high, and understandably a consensus has emerged that we ought to allow employers to know this information. However, we also know that the stigma attached to crime can lead to reduced opportunities for offenders, contributing to increases in recidivism for crimes that are more closely linked to poverty and social exclusion than inherent tendancies. In that regard, it reaches a point where it is economically and socially harmful to force the disclosure of most crimes in perpetuity. This is a simple principle that you appear not to understand.

Quote:

There is already a mechanism in place to remove small infractions from your record. This system was designed for cases just like this, so people who have committed crimes can regain their right to vote in some states, or to own firearms again, etc...The OP should have started this process long ago.


This is true I believe, in parts of the US at least, but in many other countries this is not the case.


I feel like I'm arguing with an EngKey robot here....

Starting with a punishment that fits the crime (having your name and a piece of paper with your crimes on it) and "naturally" ending (by some magical way of turning back the clock to medieval times) with cutting off hands is not logical to me. You think that the paper is too much...I think it fits the bill. No where did I say you can do anything more than have a piece of paper with your name and crimes. "Crime = punishment" is not a math equation where you can just place any offense where it says crime, and then just throw death penalty onto the other side. It doesn't work like that. For example, J-walking ≠ Death Penalty. But I guess according to you, my logic allows for J-walking = Death Penalty. I don't see it that way, in fact I am strongly against cruel and unusual punishment. Again, refer to my original quote that you keep changing. I said, "But in this increasingly competitive labor market, shouldn't the employees take some initiative and stop breaking laws and getting records?" So how we even got to this point, I'm not quite sure. I'm really at a loss here. Difference of opinion. Agree to disagree.

Now, please refer to the part in bold in your post above. It is your business to know what crimes a prospective employee has committed...because it ACTUALLY is your business! You're the owner in this situation, remember? And the laws of my country agree. Now as for the rest of this paragraph I fully understand and realize this is the reason why you are able to remove small infractions from your record. So, no need to discuss that any further either.

And your last and final point, I'm not discussing the laws of Iran. I am talking about the US, where the OP is from. So thank you for agreeing.
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrwhite82 wrote:
Now, please refer to the part in bold in your post above. It is your business to know what crimes a prospective employee has committed...because it ACTUALLY is your business! You're the owner in this situation, remember?


Is there actually anything you don't think an employer is entitled to know? I seriously want you to answer that and establish some boundaries.

As I said before, there is no reason why crimes that are more closely linked to poverty and social exclusion rather than those which result from inherent human tendancies should be disclosed after a rehabilitation period has past.

Quote:

And your last and final point, I'm not discussing the laws of Iran. I am talking about the US, where the OP is from. So thank you for agreeing.


No, I am not talking about Iran. There are many western countries which do not offer offenders the option of expunging records. In the US too, I believe that federal crimes cannot be expunged - unless the president owes you favours, and that from state to state the procedure varies.
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jrwhite82



Joined: 22 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gwangjuboy wrote:


Is there actually anything you don't think an employer is entitled to know? I seriously want you to answer that and establish some boundaries.



I'm not writing a laundry list of what I feel an employer should or shouldn't know on this thread. I am talking about crimes. I think if an employer wants to know what crimes you're guilty of before he hires you, he has the right to know. The laws of my country and all the states I've lived in agree.
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dp

Last edited by Gwangjuboy on Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrwhite82 wrote:
I'm not writing a laundry list of what I feel an employer should or shouldn't know on this thread.


I didn't ask for a laundry list but I am not surprised that you ducked the question.


Quote:

I am talking about crimes. I think if an employer wants to know what crimes you're guilty of before he hires you, he has the right to know. The laws of my country and all the states I've lived in agree.


Well that's it then, I guess because the law says so it must be right.
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