Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Libyan War
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 85, 86, 87, 88  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libya's fertility rate is a fecund but not excessive 2.56. Down from over 4 children per women only 20 years ago.

But that's a 2010 figure. It'll be interesting to see whether the war impacted fertility meaningfully.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Low fertility rates are society killers. Having a fertility rate of 1.2 but a high standard of living is the societal equivalent of being a dying old man in a very expensive nursing home. As strange as it might sound, material standard of living is not necessarily an unqualified good.


Yes, it's truly a problem. Especially in Japan and the Nordic countries. That said I would rather have that problem than the problem of the Arabic, and some Asiatic and African, countries where the population growth rate is expanding. Any amateur political scientist could tell you that the single greatest demographic threat to a society is unemployed young men. It's not a coincidence that this is coinciding with the Arab Spring and fallout that is currently occurring, nor is it a coincidence that it is happening along the same time as rising food prices. It'll be interesting to see how the birthrates will react to an improved economy. It seems that the low birth rate is an easier problem to deal with than the other one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
None the less, the intrinsic validity of the Church -- the only social institution other than family not demonized by your position, and an institution you've specifically defended against the allegation of being an element of state control, despite its clear propensity for control, and it's clear history of colluding with the state, well before Constantine -- is a built-in element of your case, which probably goes to show the danger of picking up ideas crafted by others and running with them too vigorously.


The Vatican has some pull in Italy and maybe Spain but nowhere else. The hoards of Protestant groups in the USA are at best able to slightly slow revolutionary change. They're not meaningfully involved in the actual governing of the country. They don't get anything that they want. They only slow change down.

Quote:
He has agency, and could act otherwise insofar as any of us could.


I don't believe this to be true. We are a tribal species. We naturally defer. and conform.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GF



Joined: 26 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
This whole, "Church good, every other social institution bad," idea you have here -- and given you discluded religious institutions from your Cathedral-lineup, that is what this all amounts to, something especially perverse given you claim to not want Church rule -- is a relic of a previous era, and one indicative of the Church's long previous role as an aspect of the state. There is a reason the Old Testament is full of laws, after all: religion, at large, has always been a tool of the state to induce social order. God has no reason to care about whether you pull out of your wife before ejaculating, or whether you spend your nights with your wife or with some guy, but a small state in need of population growth does. It has always been about state ends. Indeed, it was so effective in that role that people are still clamoring to serve it even after it was cast aside.


Could you explain where you're getting this historically and theologically puerile stuff from ? I would really like the opportunity to clear up misconceptions you and others may have about this.

You seem to be unaware that there is a long history of varying levels of conflict between Church and State - which would be unanticipated if the former were merely a tool of the latter - as well as a subtle theological tradition treating of their proper relations. To start with, if the Church has always been the tool of the state, then why does The Angelic Doctor teach that "the secular power is subject to the spiritual, even as the body is subject to the soul", which is pretty much the exact opposite of what you're saying ?

But I do wonder why they call it the "Cathedral" when it doesn't include the Church.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GF



Joined: 26 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
The Vatican has some pull in Italy and maybe Spain but nowhere else.


I was somewhat surprised by the force of the American backlash against the free birth control rule. I haven't kept up with the news though and it may turn out to be a show of defiance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The backlash was sensible. Fluke is a 30 year old woman in a 50k a year program and unwilling to 1) go to Planned Parenthood for free bc or 2) drop 12-15$ a month on pills.

They use the term Cathedral because media etc have replaced religion. The Pope doesn't shape our understanding of the world. TV does.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
The backlash was sensible. Fluke is a 30 year old woman in a 50k a year program and unwilling to 1) go to Planned Parenthood for free bc or 2) drop 12-15$ a month on pills.


Rush Limbaugh launched 46 personal attacks on Fluke

Quote:
4. Limbaugh: "She Wants To Be Paid To Have Sex."

8. Limbaugh: You'd Call Someone "Who Wants Us To Pay For Her To Have Sex" A "*beep* Or Prostitute."

11. Limbaugh: Fluke "Wants Us To Buy Her Sex. She Wants Us To Pay For Her Sex, And She Went To A Congressional Committee To Close The Sale."

21. Limbaugh: "Here's A Woman Exercising No Self-Control ... She Wants To Have Repeated, Never-Ending, As-Often-As-She-Wants-It Sex."

30. Limbaugh: Fluke "Is Happily Presenting Herself As An Immoral, Baseless, No-Purpose-To-Her-Life Woman. She Wants All The Sex In The World ... All The Time."

44. Limbaugh: "Does She Have More Boyfriends? Ha! They're Lined Up Around The Block. They Would Have Been, In My Day."


Totally disproportionate. Potentially defamatory. Social conservatism as petty bullying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure Fluke was listening when he said it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[dateline Paris] July 15, 1789

I'd really like to hear more about the guy who was arrested in Turkey but who is now under arrest in Tunisia in relation to the Benghazi attack and the guy who the neighbors turned in in Cairo and who the police killed.

One thing I'm curious about is the role played by people who are not rabid anything...just regular people who want a chance to live out their lives in peace and safety. I suppose they might be called 'moderates'.

* I don't expect things to go perfectly (revolutions are revolutions after all, not tea parties,
Very Happy ) but this sounds like good news.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ersatzredux



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, things are going just great there:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/04/us-libya-attack-idUSBRE8A306420121104

That's just normally what happens with a popular revolution. Just look at ...well, never mind. Real popular revolutions don't pan out that way because they require strong indigenous leadership to succeed and that leadership then is natually able to assume order afterwards. There may be continued violence after an interlude as newly empowered elites battle it out for position within the power structure, but that is not what is happening here.

What we have here is a "government" imposed from outside that has no legitimacy at all powerless in a country run by petty warlords. The more outside support they get the less legitimacy they will have...a nasty little Catch 22. Just ask the South Vietnamese how well that type of arrangement works out.

Oddly enough, giving a bunch of weapons and money to just whoever, bombing the hell out of the other side to impose a victory that would otherwise have been unobtainable, and then trying to install a bunch of bought and paid for expats to run the place afterwards, seems to have a somewhat different outcome than a real indigenous revolution.

But, lucky Libyans, never fear, the Americans- as always- are coming to help:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/06/us-libya-usa-training-idUSBRE8A519T20121106

Well, if training and arming yet another force of mercenaries- especially the type of Libyans that would work directly for America, can possibly help. I suspect somehow that it won't. I wonder when the drones are coming in...that'll really help!

What a surprise that things are turning out like that over there..Who could possibly have predicted such an outcome?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point has never been to run the country well. All of the nations in the region (less Israel and fully cooperative proxies like UAE) must be smashed. The government, society, economy, people must be smashed. The US elite is no more interested in running Syria or Libya for 'the people' than it is in running the USA 'for the people'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ersatzredux wrote:
What we have here is a "government" imposed from outside that has no legitimacy at all powerless in a country run by petty warlords. The more outside support they get the less legitimacy they will have...a nasty little Catch 22. Just ask the South Vietnamese how well that type of arrangement works out.

Exactly. And that "government" was literally terrorists that our government helped place into power (the man who became the commander of Tripoli was previously the leader of the LIFG, a subsidiary of Al Qaeda). Long story short, our government (and the rest of the hypocrites) openly place an Al Qaeda head into power in Libya, while telling the American public we're supposed to be hiding under our beds (and give up all our liberties) in fear of Al Qaeda.

Quote:
What a surprise that things are turning out like that over there..Who could possibly have predicted such an outcome?

I specifically remember people like Ya-ta boy telling us with such assurance that this was a great victory (one which would go down in history as a complete success). This is the same Ya-ta boy who has a track record of being wrong about everything, and is presently going around telling us how great Obama is and how he's going to lead us all to recovery and prosperity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
What a surprise that things are turning out like that over there..Who could possibly have predicted such an outcome?

I specifically remember people like Ya-ta boy telling us with such assurance that this was a great victory (one which would go down in history as a complete success). This is the same Ya-ta boy who has a track record of being wrong about everything, and is presently going around telling us how great Obama is and how he's going to lead us all to recovery and prosperity.


At some point you really do need to explain your obsession with me and my point of view, which you consistently manage to totally misunderstand.

If you would, go back and show quotes where I said anything at all even close to what you are claiming. If not, just openly admit you are a blow hard.

What I said from the beginning was that supporting anti-dictators was a risky proposition, but it was far better to support the anti-dictators in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, etc. because they were clearly leaning in our direction. I said it was risky and that it would not be a smooth ride.

That said, it is far better to back the progressive forces and keep our fingers crossed. The alternative is to back the forces of repression. I am skeptical of right-wing domestic backers of foreign dictatorship because I suspect you are also skeptical of domestic democracy.

Truth be told, I strongly suspect that Visitorq has a chest-full of phony ribbons and wears a funny military hat while he posts, all the while imagining he has a cohort of imaginary blond(e) Ukrainian nurses following him. It may not be true, but I will leave it up to him to prove it ain't so.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
What I said from the beginning was that supporting anti-dictators was a risky proposition, but it was far better to support the anti-dictators in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, etc. because they were clearly leaning in our direction. I said it was risky and that it would not be a smooth ride.

That said, it is far better to back the progressive forces and keep our fingers crossed. The alternative is to back the forces of repression. I am skeptical of right-wing domestic backers of foreign dictatorship because I suspect you are also skeptical of domestic democracy.

Yeah, I remember you blathering on about how "progressive" it was for us to go in and bomb Libya for "altrusitic" reasons. I remember calling you out on it, pointing out that the real reason Obomba went in there was because Libya was a threat to our interests (trying to create a gold-backed dinar currency for use in Africa and price oil in currencies other than the petrodollar). I also pointed out that it was basically a bunch of terrorists that we were supporting, which become especially clear when our government endorsed an ex-Al Qaeda leader (the previous head of the LIFG) to be the commander of Tripoli.

In short, I saw through your ridiculous pro-war apologetics and predicted that Libya would not end up being some "progressive" land of opportunity and contentment. Of course you ended up being dead wrong, because your entire world view is as phony as a $3 bill and literally every political spin you put on this type of thing is bunk. No surprise whatsoever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That said, it is far better to back the progressive forces and keep our fingers crossed


How are the Muslim Brotherhood 'progressive'?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 85, 86, 87, 88  Next
Page 86 of 88

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2013 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International