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The Libyan War
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm for self determination. Newly found countries often don't get it 'right' from the onset. A fringe group takes over. If its a democracy, its not a bad thing long term.
Kitchen table issues are what's eventually going to win the day and whomever is in charge, if they can't deliver the basics: jobs, education, etc.
Will be voted out.
If the government becomes extremist and they alienate countries that can provide it with international trade, they will be voted out. Egypt has a gold mine for tourists having the Pyramids and such.
If the party in power goes too far and they become the pariah of the western world, the people will usually vote them out. People take pride in their country and want it respected.
This is all assuming the country is an ongoing democracy.
There will be growing pains. They will get some things wrong. America got some things wrong when it first started. It wasn't a perfect road.
The main and most important thing is these nations stay democratic.
Tougher to do than just saying it.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
If the party in power goes too far and they become the pariah of the western world, the people will usually vote them out. People take pride in their country and want it respected.

The exception to this being when the governing party is able to antagonize "the West" into aggressive moves (like political isolation, sanctions, and threats of war) which allows the governing party to use a hard-line "we'll keep you safe from evil foreigners", rally-around-the-flag effect.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
What I said from the beginning was that supporting anti-dictators was a risky proposition, but it was far better to support the anti-dictators in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, etc. because they were clearly leaning in our direction. I said it was risky and that it would not be a smooth ride.

That said, it is far better to back the progressive forces and keep our fingers crossed. The alternative is to back the forces of repression. I am skeptical of right-wing domestic backers of foreign dictatorship because I suspect you are also skeptical of domestic democracy.

Yeah, I remember you blathering on about how "progressive" it was for us to go in and bomb Libya for "altrusitic" reasons. I remember calling you out on it, pointing out that the real reason Obomba went in there was because Libya was a threat to our interests (trying to create a gold-backed dinar currency for use in Africa and price oil in currencies other than the petrodollar). I also pointed out that it was basically a bunch of terrorists that we were supporting, which become especially clear when our government endorsed an ex-Al Qaeda leader (the previous head of the LIFG) to be the commander of Tripoli.

In short, I saw through your ridiculous pro-war apologetics and predicted that Libya would not end up being some "progressive" land of opportunity and contentment. Of course you ended up being dead wrong, because your entire world view is as phony as a $3 bill and literally every political spin you put on this type of thing is bunk. No surprise whatsoever.


How about actually quoting what I said at the time, rather than your interpretation?

I am more or less satisfied with what has been happening in Libya since the revolution. They had an election. It is clear that things are still unsettled at this time...think 1790 France. Revolutions take a long time, which is what I said at the time. Turkey is only now, after 70 years, settling down into a system we would accept as a democratic society. Both France and the US took roughly the same amount of time. I am not saying it takes until the entire generation that lived before the revolution to pass from the scene, but it kinda more or less looks like it.

Things are going to zig and then they are going to zag and we are not always going to be happy with the problems it presents, but it is far far better than what went before--propping up a dictatorship.

Call me naive, but at what point were conservatives in the West going to switch over into supporting...ah, um, errrr, you know, democracy? When were you planning on scheduling a period in history when there would be no problems for about a century when it would be 'safe' for the West to sponsor a change?

The real question is just how much faith conservative pro-dictatorship types like you have in democracy at home.

PS: This entire Benghazi thing of McCain at home is about trying like the dickens to de-legitimize Obama's approach to victory in Libya.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20584573
Quote:

Twenty-five-year-old Magdulien Abaida, who was involved in organising aid for the rebels fighting Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, has just been given asylum here by the UK government.

Now the city on the edge of the North Sea, where she knows no-one, has become her temporary home.

The irony of her situation is clear: "It's very bad that you put yourself in danger to work hard for this revolution," she says. "And then in the end you have to leave it because it's not a safe place for you anymore."
Mustafa Abdel Jalil Mustafa Abdel Jalil caused dismay in some quarters when he proposed making polygamy easier

"During the revolution everyone was united, all were working together, but now it's quite difficult," she says.

Ms Abaida, the daughter of a lawyer, grew up on the shores of the Mediterranean in Libya's capital, Tripoli.

When the uprising against Gaddafi's 41-year dictatorship broke out in February 2011 she travelled first to Cairo and then to Paris to campaign against the regime and help organise food and medical supplies for the rebels.

After Tripoli fell to the rebels in August, she returned to Libya to campaign for women's rights - in particular for equality in the yet to be written constitution.

Like other activists, she was concerned by what she saw as the growing influence of Islamic fundamentalists.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

Some were horrified, for example, when in October 2011 Mustafa Abdul Jalil, the internationally-known face of the revolution and head of the rebels' National Transitional Council (NTC), used his first public speech after the fall of Gaddafi to propose making it easier for men to have more than one wife.

"It was a big shock for us. This is not why we made the revolution - not for men to marry four women," Ms Abaida says. "We wanted more rights, not to destroy the rights of half of the society."


Stupid woman thought a revolution in Libya would be pro-feminist. The earth is full of fools.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
mises wrote:
Who advised Sarkozy to war?

http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/why-are-they-making-war-on-libya/
Quote:
On March 4, the French literary dandy Bernard-Henri Lévy held a private meeting in Benghazi with Moustapha Abdeljalil, a former justice minister who has turned coats to become leader of the rebel “National Transition Council”. That very evening, BHL called Sarkozy on his cellphone and got his agreement to receive the NTC leaders. The meeting took place on March 10 in the Elysée palace in Paris. As reported in Le Figaro by veteran international reporter Renaud Girard, Sarkozy thereupon announced to the delighted Libyans the plan that he had concocted with BHL: recognition of the NTC as sole legitimate representative of Libya, the naming of a French ambassador to Benghazi, precision strikes on Libyan military airports, with the blessings of the Arab League (which he had already obtained). The French foreign minister, Alain Juppé, was startled to learn of this dramatic turn in French diplomacy after the media.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-22/sarkozy-libya-plan-got-push-from-american-vertigo-author-levy.html

Quote:
French author Bernard-Henri Levy was present at the creation of President Nicolas Sarkozy’s decision to intervene in the Libyan civil war.

With Foreign Minister Alain Juppe in Brussels, Levy, 62, attended Sarkozy’s March 10 meeting at the Elysee Palace with leaders of the Libyan opposition. Having arranged the encounter, Levy urged Sarkozy to become the first to recognize them as the government of Libya -- which he did.

It was Levy who confirmed a Le Monde report that day that Sarkozy was pushing for air strikes against Muammar Qaddafi. Juppe’s meeting in Brussels with his European Union counterparts failed to yield consensus on recognizing the Benghazi-based opposition and on military attacks. The United Nations voted a week later to authorize a no-fly zone.

“It’s too serious an issue to have someone like Bernard- Henri Levy tell France what to do in Libya,” said Stephane Rozes, who founded the Paris-based Cap Institute, a political- advisory firm. “His public posture is not good for France or its diplomacy.”


BHL is one of the most arrogant and obnoxious Israel-firsters on earth - and that is one hell of an accomplishment. He is the prototypical neo-con (though claims to support J-Street). He uses universalistic language and ideas to achieve ethnocentric goals.


Why did BHL support the war?

In his own words:

http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/international/article/bhl-en-libye-je-ne-l-aurais-pas-fait-si-je-n-avais-pas-ete-juif-7737034667

Quote:
Le philosophe Bernard-Henri Lévy a déclaré dimanche que "c'est en tant que juif" qu'il avait "participé à l'aventure politique en Libye", lors de la première Convention nationale organisé par le Conseil représentation des organisations juives de France (Crif). "Je ne l'aurais pas fait si je n'avais pas été juif", a ajouté le philosophe, devant un auditoire de près de 900 personnes, réuni à Paris, ajoutant: "J'ai porté en étendard ma fidélité à mon nom et ma fidélité au sionisme et à Israël".


In English:

Quote:
The philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy said Sunday that "this is as a Jew" that he had "participated in the political adventure in Libya", when the first national Convention organized by the Council representation of Jewish organizations in France (Crif). "I wouldn't have done if i had not been Jewish", has added the philosopher, in front of an audience of nearly 900 people, met in Paris, adding: "I brought in my fidelity to etendard my name and my loyalty to Zionism and Israel".


For some reason I can't figure out this guy is called a philosopher and ends up on tv around the world to push wars for Israel.

Is this really who Western people ought to be taking war advice from?


http://forward.com/articles/173418/philosopher-bernard-henri-levy-barred-from-libya-f/

Quote:
Philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy Barred From Libya for Being Jewish
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The WaPo has done a nose-dive since Obama:

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/332173661018660865
Who's tweeting about Benghazi? Rich, middle-aged men and Chick-fil-A lovers http://wapo.st/18YFgKP

Who/whom. The issue isn't the truth of what happened but who is focused on the truth. The Bolshevization of American politics is speeding up.
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ampersandman



Joined: 01 Jun 2013

PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I miss Gaddafi.
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Butterfly



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ampersandman wrote:
I miss Gaddafi.


I take it you're not Libyan.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butterfly wrote:
ampersandman wrote:
I miss Gaddafi.


I take it you're not Libyan.


Hey our resident Libya expert is back. I trust you're here to update us on the ins, outs and who is who of the tribal-ethno conflict there? Or do you need a few more convos with englishy speaking taxi drivers first?
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Butterfly



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
ampersandman wrote:
I miss Gaddafi.


I take it you're not Libyan.


Hey our resident Libya expert is back. I trust you're here to update us on the ins, outs and who is who of the tribal-ethno conflict there? Or do you need a few more convos with englishy speaking taxi drivers first?


Never claimed to be an expert. Still in touch with people though, all kinds of trouble there. Nobody calling for the return of the Ghaddafi clan though as far as I can see; Saif still banged up. You're a bit of an angry keyboard warrior aren't you? I bet you hedge like a mofo when you debate in person?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I bet you hedge like a mofo when you debate in person?


I'm equally or more assertive in person.

I was hoping for some War Nerd/Eric Margolis updates from the ground. Instead we get "well things are bad but nobody wants stability, growth and peace back". As if.

Did you realize that your buddies over there were treating you for a fool? Arabs will not be honest with a foreigner about politics. "We want Sharia law and to kill the other clan" becomes "MG is a dictator and we only want democracy!" when talking to pale-face. Don't fall for it dude. You did not understand how the society would violently fracture when the anchor was destroyed. Next time talk with them about soccer.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/08/can-libya-be-saved.html
Quote:
With no further need for war and with Western powers fussing over what was being vaunted as the oil-rich nation’s new democracy, Libya should have once again achieved peace and stability. Instead, the country, of more than six million people, seems to have been fatally destabilized by the war to remove its dictator, and it is increasingly out of control.

Militias that arose on various regional battlefronts found themselves in possession of vast arsenals and large swaths of territory. Despite the orchestration of parliamentary elections and the assumption of nominal rule by civilian politicians in Tripoli, those militias have not stood down; instead, they have used their force and their firepower to try to effect change in the capital, even, on several occasions, besieging government buildings. They have also fought one another over long-held regional enmities; the most recent such battle occurred last month….


This outcome was the point. When selling the conflict to a naive to the point of retarded Western idiot audience TPTB go on about freedom.

And then...*poof*. No more CNN coverage. Operation WhateverWhoever was a success. Moving on.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who yearn for the good old days of Qaddafi keep seeming to call for dictatorship of some kind. That tells us more about the speaker than it does about Libya.

It is quite true that Libya hasn't turned out to be the Middle Eastern poster child of democracy. It also quite true that Libya hasn't turned out to be the poster boy for a new Islamist-style Qaddafi.

Libya's revolution is only a couple of years into its revolutionary process. France took 70 or 80 years after it had been an actual country for 1,000 years. The US took four score and seven years or so.

Give Libya some time to work out its history.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That tells us more about the speaker than it does about Libya.


It tells us they have alot more understanding of how the real world works than ageing hippies like yourself who start to wet themselves with excitement whenever the media gins up another 'revolution.' How are your heart-eating revolutionary buddies doing over in Syria?
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feeling a little nostalgic for Middle Eastern dictators and Ukrainian nurses, littleverne?
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