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The Libyan War
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
People who yearn for the good old days of Qaddafi keep seeming to call for dictatorship of some kind. That tells us more about the speaker than it does about Libya.

It is quite true that Libya hasn't turned out to be the Middle Eastern poster child of democracy. It also quite true that Libya hasn't turned out to be the poster boy for a new Islamist-style Qaddafi.

Libya's revolution is only a couple of years into its revolutionary process. France took 70 or 80 years after it had been an actual country for 1,000 years. The US took four score and seven years or so.

Give Libya some time to work out its history.


So if Libya is still a complete mess 70 or 80 years after having been thrown into chaos through the intervention of foreign powers, it will be fine? Precisely how many generations of Libyans would have to live under the such conditions before it would cease to be acceptable? Or is the destabilization of foreign countries unfalsifiable in its "goodness," such that no empirical results could ever demonstrate this to have been a bad idea?
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Or is the destabilization of foreign countries unfalsifiable in its "goodness," such that no empirical results could ever demonstrate this to have been a bad idea?


It made Ya-ta feel all warm and fluffy inside, thinking about the wave of freedom and democracy that would sweep over the Arab world, and he's now too proud to admit that he was hopelessly ignorant and naive. He called them 'progressive revolutions' for god sake....
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Give Libya some time to work out its history.


There is no such thing as a Libya without a uniting authoritarian force.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Give Libya some time to work out its history.


There is no such thing as a Libya without a uniting authoritarian force.


Time will tell.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The militias will come together for a constitutional convention and hammer out an agreement.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/special-report-we-all-thought-libya-had-moved-on--it-has-but-into-lawlessness-and-ruin-8797041.html

Quote:
We all thought Libya had moved on – it has, but into lawlessness and ruin

A little under two years ago, Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary, urged British businessmen to begin “packing their suitcases” and to fly to Libya to share in the reconstruction of the country and exploit an anticipated boom in natural resources.

Yet now Libya has almost entirely stopped producing oil as the government loses control of much of the country to militia fighters.


Better off under the dictator.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The progressive revolution seems to be going swimmingly over there....

Militants kidnap Libya’s prime minister

Gunmen abducted Libya’s prime minister on Thursday morning after his government was accused of allowing a team of US commandos to kidnap an alleged al-Qaeda militant in the country’s capital Tripoli.

Ali Zeidan, the leader of Libya’s wobbly government, was whisked away from the five-star Corinthia hotel in central Tripoli by the gunmen, according to a statement posted to his official website and news accounts.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed2b538c-3164-11e3-b478-00144feab7de.html#axzz2hMjJZn31
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
The progressive revolution seems to be going swimmingly over there....

Militants kidnap Libya’s prime minister

Gunmen abducted Libya’s prime minister on Thursday morning after his government was accused of allowing a team of US commandos to kidnap an alleged al-Qaeda militant in the country’s capital Tripoli.

Ali Zeidan, the leader of Libya’s wobbly government, was whisked away from the five-star Corinthia hotel in central Tripoli by the gunmen, according to a statement posted to his official website and news accounts.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed2b538c-3164-11e3-b478-00144feab7de.html#axzz2hMjJZn31


Ha "wobbly government". If you're wobbling, you're not a government.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And released 6 hours later.

Officials and witnesses said two local militias freed Zeidan — without a fight — from a house in the Tripoli suburb of Fornaj around mid-morning. Zeidan returned to the heavily guarded luxury hotel where he lives, collected his belongings and drove with armed guards to the government headquarters, witnesses said.

At 12:33 p.m. Thursday, as he made his way to his office, Zeidan tweeted from his official account: “If the purpose of my kidnapping is to get me to resign, I won’t resign. We are taking slow, but steady steps on the right path.”

From his office, he delivered a short speech thanking the military, the police, the militias that helped and those from across the country who “phoned a lot.”

Zeidan did not name his captors or detail their demands. But he and government spokespeople suggested that the kidnappers were trying to force him to make political concessions.

“We emphasize that this crime cannot undermine the legitimacy of the Libyan state institutions,” a government spokesman said shortly before the prime minister’s release. “The interim government emphasizes that it cannot bow to any blackmail from any party.”

But the kidnapping was undoubtedly a setback in a country that is trying to change perceptions of lawlessness.


http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-10-10/world/42875417_1_u-s-raid-militia-hotel-room

It sounds like the Tea Party is loose in Libya. ^^
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/19/assassination-libya-civil-war-gaddafi-benghazi

Quote:
Assassination pushes Libya towards civil war two years after Gaddafi death


Who the fk could have guess this? They don't read, they're clannish and they're living in borders created by outsiders. A few more Yankee bombs and democracy is solid.
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ersatzredux



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Who the fk could have guess this?


I know, what a shock to see this is happening:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/libya-in-crisis-rival-militias-position-themselves-for-civil-war-as-country-teeters-on-brink-9399311.html#

Perhaps just some more democracy teething pains and blah blah- hey look, Nigerian schoolgirls!
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though it doesn't change anything, and won't impact regime behavior next time the liberation bug hits, it is nice to see some honesty and blunt language:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/11/07/the-ruined-libya/ZOSuLBCMzVhZ3tZJlHv2sL/story.html?event=event25

Quote:
The US ruined Libya

JUST THREE years have passed since an American-led bombing campaign destroyed the regime of Moammar Khadafy in Libya. At first that operation felt like a victory for peace and freedom. By bringing down the dictator, we presumed we had “liberated” Libyans and that they would quickly settle into pro-American democracy.

The speed with which we have been proven disastrously wrong, however, is breathtaking. So is the sweeping scope of unintended consequences that have flowed from this intervention. Not even those who opposed it imagined how far-reaching its effects would be. This is likely to go down in history as the most ill-conceived intervention of the Obama era.
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ersatzredux



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose. But no, it won't help. Everybody's already forgotten about it. Besides, it is not a disaster at all if your goal all along was simply to destroy. Mission Accomplished!
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Plain Meaning



Joined: 18 Oct 2014

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ecc3a300383445d5a90dd6ca764c9e15/house-intel-panel-debunks-many-benghazi-theories

Quote:
A two-year investigation by the Republican-controlled House Intelligence Committee has found that the CIA and the military acted properly in responding to the 2012 attack on a U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, and asserted no wrongdoing by Obama administration appointees.

Debunking a series of persistent allegations hinting at dark conspiracies, the investigation of the politically charged incident determined that there was no intelligence failure, no delay in sending a CIA rescue team, no missed opportunity for a military rescue, and no evidence the CIA was covertly shipping arms from Libya to Syria.

In the immediate aftermath of the attack, intelligence about who carried it out and why was contradictory, the report found. That led Susan Rice, then U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, to inaccurately assert that the attack had evolved from a protest, when in fact there had been no protest. But it was intelligence analysts, not political appointees, who made the wrong call, the committee found. The report did not conclude that Rice or any other government official acted in bad faith or intentionally misled the American people.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ersatzredux wrote:
I suppose. But no, it won't help. Everybody's already forgotten about it. Besides, it is not a disaster at all if your goal all along was simply to destroy. Mission Accomplished!


Yes, that was the goal.

Now the goal - and they're succeeding - is to do exactly the same thing to Syria. The Last Men posing as citizens in the West will nod along obediently to the talk of freedom, liberation and democracy.
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