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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
People who yearn for the good old days of Qaddafi keep seeming to call for dictatorship of some kind. That tells us more about the speaker than it does about Libya.
It is quite true that Libya hasn't turned out to be the Middle Eastern poster child of democracy. It also quite true that Libya hasn't turned out to be the poster boy for a new Islamist-style Qaddafi.
Libya's revolution is only a couple of years into its revolutionary process. France took 70 or 80 years after it had been an actual country for 1,000 years. The US took four score and seven years or so.
Give Libya some time to work out its history. |
So if Libya is still a complete mess 70 or 80 years after having been thrown into chaos through the intervention of foreign powers, it will be fine? Precisely how many generations of Libyans would have to live under the such conditions before it would cease to be acceptable? Or is the destabilization of foreign countries unfalsifiable in its "goodness," such that no empirical results could ever demonstrate this to have been a bad idea? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Or is the destabilization of foreign countries unfalsifiable in its "goodness," such that no empirical results could ever demonstrate this to have been a bad idea? |
It made Ya-ta feel all warm and fluffy inside, thinking about the wave of freedom and democracy that would sweep over the Arab world, and he's now too proud to admit that he was hopelessly ignorant and naive. He called them 'progressive revolutions' for god sake.... |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Give Libya some time to work out its history. |
There is no such thing as a Libya without a uniting authoritarian force. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Titus wrote: |
Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Give Libya some time to work out its history. |
There is no such thing as a Libya without a uniting authoritarian force. |
Time will tell. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:49 am Post subject: |
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The militias will come together for a constitutional convention and hammer out an agreement. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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The progressive revolution seems to be going swimmingly over there....
Militants kidnap Libya’s prime minister
Gunmen abducted Libya’s prime minister on Thursday morning after his government was accused of allowing a team of US commandos to kidnap an alleged al-Qaeda militant in the country’s capital Tripoli.
Ali Zeidan, the leader of Libya’s wobbly government, was whisked away from the five-star Corinthia hotel in central Tripoli by the gunmen, according to a statement posted to his official website and news accounts.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed2b538c-3164-11e3-b478-00144feab7de.html#axzz2hMjJZn31 |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:23 am Post subject: |
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bigverne wrote: |
The progressive revolution seems to be going swimmingly over there....
Militants kidnap Libya’s prime minister
Gunmen abducted Libya’s prime minister on Thursday morning after his government was accused of allowing a team of US commandos to kidnap an alleged al-Qaeda militant in the country’s capital Tripoli.
Ali Zeidan, the leader of Libya’s wobbly government, was whisked away from the five-star Corinthia hotel in central Tripoli by the gunmen, according to a statement posted to his official website and news accounts.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed2b538c-3164-11e3-b478-00144feab7de.html#axzz2hMjJZn31 |
Ha "wobbly government". If you're wobbling, you're not a government. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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And released 6 hours later.
Officials and witnesses said two local militias freed Zeidan — without a fight — from a house in the Tripoli suburb of Fornaj around mid-morning. Zeidan returned to the heavily guarded luxury hotel where he lives, collected his belongings and drove with armed guards to the government headquarters, witnesses said.
At 12:33 p.m. Thursday, as he made his way to his office, Zeidan tweeted from his official account: “If the purpose of my kidnapping is to get me to resign, I won’t resign. We are taking slow, but steady steps on the right path.”
From his office, he delivered a short speech thanking the military, the police, the militias that helped and those from across the country who “phoned a lot.”
Zeidan did not name his captors or detail their demands. But he and government spokespeople suggested that the kidnappers were trying to force him to make political concessions.
“We emphasize that this crime cannot undermine the legitimacy of the Libyan state institutions,” a government spokesman said shortly before the prime minister’s release. “The interim government emphasizes that it cannot bow to any blackmail from any party.”
But the kidnapping was undoubtedly a setback in a country that is trying to change perceptions of lawlessness.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-10-10/world/42875417_1_u-s-raid-militia-hotel-room
It sounds like the Tea Party is loose in Libya. ^^ |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Though it doesn't change anything, and won't impact regime behavior next time the liberation bug hits, it is nice to see some honesty and blunt language:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/11/07/the-ruined-libya/ZOSuLBCMzVhZ3tZJlHv2sL/story.html?event=event25
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The US ruined Libya
JUST THREE years have passed since an American-led bombing campaign destroyed the regime of Moammar Khadafy in Libya. At first that operation felt like a victory for peace and freedom. By bringing down the dictator, we presumed we had “liberated” Libyans and that they would quickly settle into pro-American democracy.
The speed with which we have been proven disastrously wrong, however, is breathtaking. So is the sweeping scope of unintended consequences that have flowed from this intervention. Not even those who opposed it imagined how far-reaching its effects would be. This is likely to go down in history as the most ill-conceived intervention of the Obama era.
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose. But no, it won't help. Everybody's already forgotten about it. Besides, it is not a disaster at all if your goal all along was simply to destroy. Mission Accomplished! |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ecc3a300383445d5a90dd6ca764c9e15/house-intel-panel-debunks-many-benghazi-theories
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A two-year investigation by the Republican-controlled House Intelligence Committee has found that the CIA and the military acted properly in responding to the 2012 attack on a U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, and asserted no wrongdoing by Obama administration appointees.
Debunking a series of persistent allegations hinting at dark conspiracies, the investigation of the politically charged incident determined that there was no intelligence failure, no delay in sending a CIA rescue team, no missed opportunity for a military rescue, and no evidence the CIA was covertly shipping arms from Libya to Syria.
In the immediate aftermath of the attack, intelligence about who carried it out and why was contradictory, the report found. That led Susan Rice, then U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, to inaccurately assert that the attack had evolved from a protest, when in fact there had been no protest. But it was intelligence analysts, not political appointees, who made the wrong call, the committee found. The report did not conclude that Rice or any other government official acted in bad faith or intentionally misled the American people. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:59 am Post subject: |
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ersatzredux wrote: |
I suppose. But no, it won't help. Everybody's already forgotten about it. Besides, it is not a disaster at all if your goal all along was simply to destroy. Mission Accomplished! |
Yes, that was the goal.
Now the goal - and they're succeeding - is to do exactly the same thing to Syria. The Last Men posing as citizens in the West will nod along obediently to the talk of freedom, liberation and democracy. |
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