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The Libyan War
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beck's wrote:

The rebellions have nothing to do with 'democracy.' The ME has no democratic traditions. It is all about the establishment of the caliphate.


all right mr. paranoid. And this is based on your own ignorance- correct? And I do believe Turkey and Israel are a part of the ME. Wink
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rollo wrote:
Where would it stop.


Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen and now Libya. It doesn't stop until the bullets are gone.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beck's wrote:
"The head of the Arab League has criticized international strikes on Libya, saying they caused civilian deaths.

The Arab League's support for a no-fly zone last week helped overcome reluctance in the West for action in Libya. The U.N. authorized not only a no-fly zone but also "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.

Amr Moussa says the military operations have gone beyond what the Arab League backed.

Moussa has told reporters Sunday that "what happened differs from the no-fly zone objectives." He says "what we want is civilians' protection not shelling more civilians."

This little midguided foreign adventure will be seen as another crusade against Moslems. It will encourage the Islamist rebels and make possible their coup.


I bet you're wrong. The Arab League's representatives come from governments in the region. The Arab Spring has exposed the tension between the government and the people. My guess is that many Arabs view the Arab League as illegitimate, and the Arab League's condemnation might be a blessing for the international forces.

No doubt some Arabs will view the international efforts critically. But I feel they'll view American silence re: Bahrain even more critically.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I feel they'll view American silence re: Bahrain even more critically.


Yes, this is going to be harder to overcome. The fact that the opposition is only asking for reform (constitutional monarchy) rather than overthrow and that there is not an alternative government to support is going to (probably) escape the protesters. They, like some posters here, are going to be saying, 'consistency', 'consistency' while missing the inconsistencies of the situation.

It's whack-a-mole time and so far Obama is playing it pretty well. I don't doubt he'll drop the ball sometimes--how can you help it when a dozen or so different revolutions are happening at the same time and each needs a different policy? But the key is to keep us on the side of the progressives, and he is.
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading the posts it seems that most of the posters are ignorant about the UN.

America, France and Britain never attacked Libya, the UN did.

There are 5 countries in the Security Council, with extras.

3 are taking action, Russia is scared of saying too much in case the world asks them about its internal problems, ditto China.

Though they abstained, so it goes through.

America is not attacking Libya, the UN is. They are simply the providers of weaponary for the UN as they agreed in 1945.

If you dont accept that, then protest so your Government will end the Security Council.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you dont accept that, then protest so your Government will end the Security Council.


I don't really get your point. Are you favoring UN action, or are you urging people to pressure the UN to act differently? If differently, how so?

I could easily be mistaken, but I seem to remember you as one of those hysterical anti-world government types who thought building a highway from the southern border of the US to the northern would end with all of us with a devilish 666 tatooed to our foreheads. (or some such)
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I could easily be mistaken, but I seem to remember you as one of those hysterical anti-world government types who thought building a highway from the southern border of the US to the northern would end with all of us with a devilish 666 tatooed to our foreheads. (or some such)


You are mistaken, as I never read about that issue.

I support the UNs actions, but I feel too little, too late. They should have done it when the issue was burning, as in when the people were fighting hard and close to Tripoli.

My point is that too many people are bitching about the US when its not even thier show. They are simply for once doing what they agreed to do in 1945.

Issues, I know something about, I will jump in on. Issues I know nothing about, well I dont step in too much.

I don't really like Globalisation, but I like it better than ethnocentrism. I fight 2 issues, 1 is Chinese nationalism and thier nationalistic citizens desire to rewrite the world in thier image (I support Globalism).

2 is the right for people not to be forced to follow a Global agenda chosen by a bunch of self absorbed upper class (so called by themselves) eliteist. (In that sense I support individualism). Though I guess both are related.

Though, nope, no road building arguments for me. Though if you find me a person with 666 tatooed on his forehead and a hitler type, I am willing to take him fishing.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
It's whack-a-mole time and so far Obama is playing it pretty well. I don't doubt he'll drop the ball sometimes--how can you help it when a dozen or so different revolutions are happening at the same time and each needs a different policy? But the key is to keep us on the side of the progressives, and he is.


He did well with passing the resolution. China and Russia both abstained, but neither are they content with the international actions. Letting the French take the lead was very shrewd.

Quote:
U.S. officials, eager to avoid similarities to the invasion of Iraq and the toppling of Saddam Hussein, have been playing down Washington's role and emphasizing that overthrowing or killing Gaddafi is not the goal of the attacks on Libya.


This is probably the best stance. Nevertheless, this could drag out the conflict. The international forces are basically backing the rebels, acceding to their requests to strike certain targets but also holding back on ground forces (which the international forces are happy to do). The ridiculous Russian hyperbole aside, the international forces are given wide latitude under the resolution 1970.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Though if you find me a person with 666 tatooed on his forehead and a hitler type, I am willing to take him fishing.


You mean if you were out walking on a country road and came across a little dude with a toothbrush mustache and an impulse to mutter 'seig hiel', you would ask him to go fishing? Hmmm.

Quote:
China and Russia both abstained


I find the article that I posted earlier on why China abstained (China buys more than half of its oil from Saudi and the Saudi king has a hardon for Qadaffi) to be a reasonable explanation, but that China is petrified of its own people suddenly getting an itch for a vote that actually matters to be enough to explain what they are up to. Russia just seems to be running around in circles playing the games of the last century and hoping it will matter again.

Obama said today that in 'a matter of days' we will make an exit and leave it all in the hands of the British and French. I hope he is able to pull that off. Preferably with a bleeding corpse of Qadaffi on a sand dune.

Naturally, if he can pull this one off, the GOP may as well run Elmer Fudd in '12 because no one would be able to beat him. (That's what GHW Bush thought in '92, but then he didn't have half the governors of the country trying to turn the citizens into serfs.)
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Space Bar



Joined: 20 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

America's 1st Black President Invades Africa

Posted: 2011/03/20
From: Mathaba


Ignoring the call of the African Union - the regional organization having jurisdiction which counts every African nation save Morocco among its members - and channeling the political ghost of George W. Bush on the eighth anniversary of the "Shock and Awe" attack on Iraq, "America's First Black President" ordered the launch of some 110 Tomahawk missiles on Libya Saturday, killing an unknown number of Africans for oil.

According to various media sources, Libyan authorities reported that 48 people were killed and more than 150 injured, most of them civilians, and that the missiles hit civilian targets, among them a hospital in Tripoli, in an attack that Obama claimed was intended to protect civilians from the Libyan government.


At present, as we saw during "Shock and Awe" and have seen pretty much every day since, the mainstream media tell the same story, if in different words - that Gadaffi is crazy, that he's a brutal dictator, that this is not about oil, and that we will be in and out quickly.

And this time again, as in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq (and more recently in Cote D'Ivoire), we have seen the so-called progressive media pile on in the demonization of the leadership that is a prerequisite to progressive acquiescence, if not outright acceptance, of imperial intervention.

Don DeBar's blog post continues at link
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space Bar, I will consider you a racist until you adequately explain what the president's skin color has to do with the present situation.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL @ Mathaba.

In Beijing I had a roommate from Mauritania. Dude was Caucasian, but his skin color was darker than my pale white NE European complexion. I brought my boss over to my place once to talk with him about enrolling in a Chinese language program at her school. I told her Mauritania is a country in Africa. She kept asking awkward questions about my roommate under the mistaken presumption that he was black.

She assumed because he was from Africa that he was black. Pretty embarrassing for a Chinese to make that mistake, but for a North American? Yikes.
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beck's



Joined: 02 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The UN is a joke. If you honestly believe that the UN is responsible for the attack on Libya you are sadly mistaken. It is the so-called Crusaders who are behind the attack and that is how it will be seen by Muslims. Before the next news cycle we will see pics of Muslim women wailing over dead bodies killed by US missles.

US interests are not being defended here. There is no reason not to let these people settle their own scores. What the US and other western powers are doing is supporting an Islamist coup.

Daffy is crazy but he is their crazy not ours. This is simply another foreign adventure and if anyone thinks we won't end up with 'boots on the ground' they are sadly mistaken. This is another case of Obama fueling the US national debt.

With the exception of Israel there is no bonifide democratic tradition in the ME with the possible exception of Turkey which is rapidly moving in the direction of Islamism. It took western civ hundreds of years, from the Magna Carta on, to develop democracy. It is ridiculous to think that a culture that hates us will adopt our system of democratic values.
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You mean if you were out walking on a country road and came across a little dude with a toothbrush mustache and an impulse to mutter 'seig hiel', you would ask him to go fishing? Hmmm.


I said I would take him fishing, there was no comment about bringing him back.

Smile

We are so scared of being proven to be white racists, or descendants of past 19th century generations that most people will stand on the side lines and accept violence against others.

Just so long as our nations (which we have no say in) dont do anything that might make us look bad.Íts a shame that we are frightened of standing up for others in case we are accused.
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Summer Wine



Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It took western civ hundreds of years, from the Magna Carta on, to develop democracy. It is ridiculous to think that a culture that hates us will adopt our system of democratic values.


It took 400 yrs.

If you listen to Chinese Nationalists, they want to re-write history based on thier so called 5000 yrs of history and English, US, Japanese exploitation which all occured in 500 yrs.

Personally, I feel you have to start some where.

Forget why it cant be done, look at what you can do. There is always a reason why its not possible, or why some Great Grand Child needs to suffer for the sins of thier forefathers.

Ignore it and move on.
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