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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: Short (?) Contract thread |
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A lot of people seem very concerned about the nature of their contracts and how the contract can be used to enforce demands of one party against another. This has me scratching my head a bit.
Here in the States contracts can be drawn-up between parties. There are also pre-printed forms that outline general responsibilities with locations at the end for special conditions. Apartment leases are probably the best example of this last.
I'm wondering what the nature of these contracts are.
Do individual schools have unique contracts drawn-up or are there general agreements used by most institutions? Are contracts for private schools generally the same as Public schools or are there significant differences?
The use of contracts also has a lot to do with the culture. Here in the States everything is about the "letter of the law" and what was on the page when it was signed. Is this the same for the Korean culture?
IOW, are these real contracts with a capital "C" or more along the lines of "memorandum of understanding"?
Do the contracts and their enforcement vary depending on location in the country or the nature of the school?
I know some of these questions must seem pretty obvious to old-timers, and it would be easy for me to assume.....
Of course, you know what happens when you ass u me, right? Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Do the contracts and their enforcement vary depending on location in the country or the nature of the school? |
You have regional contracts for public schools and every man for himself contracts for private schools.
One is more secure, the other isn't.
Any questions? |
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Allthechildrenareinsane
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
Location: Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Short (?) Contract thread |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
A lot of people seem very concerned about the nature of their contracts and how the contract can be used to enforce demands of one party against another. This has me scratching my head a bit.
Here in the States contracts can be drawn-up between parties. There are also pre-printed forms that outline general responsibilities with locations at the end for special conditions. Apartment leases are probably the best example of this last.
I'm wondering what the nature of these contracts are.
Do individual schools have unique contracts drawn-up or are there general agreements used by most institutions? Are contracts for private schools generally the same as Public schools or are there significant differences?
The use of contracts also has a lot to do with the culture. Here in the States everything is about the "letter of the law" and what was on the page when it was signed. Is this the same for the Korean culture?
IOW, are these real contracts with a capital "C" or more along the lines of "memorandum of understanding"?
Do the contracts and their enforcement vary depending on location in the country or the nature of the school?
I know some of these questions must seem pretty obvious to old-timers, and it would be easy for me to assume.....
Of course, you know what happens when you ass u me, right? Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
Based on my own hagwon experience and what I've gathered from hearing about others' experiences, contracts are treated more like the latter.
As I understand it (and anyone more knowledgeable in these matters is welcome to correct me), in Korean business culture a written contract is less important than the employer-employee relationship and whatever unwritten understandings, arrangements and agreements develop between the two parties.
Given the often rigid, hierarchical nature of Korean society, both written contracts and employer-employee relationships are generally structured in ways that favor the employer's interests over and above those of the employee. I suppose one could argue that this is probably more so in the case of employing NETs. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Many thanks..... your posts speak to the heart of the suspicions I've been forming.
I know that many threads and posts on this forum mention "contracts" but the situations that arise concerning those agreements don't seem to fit the idea of a contract that I know. Thats why I thought I would ask.
The sense that I get is what is being called a "contract" is more of a "handshake on paper". I don't get the idea that people go running to the lawyer and the courts over such things. Rather they seem to seek-out somebody to negotiate a difference of opinion such as a government agency (though I suppose a lawyer could be a negotiator as well). Is this pretty accurate? For teachers Stateside, problems with contracts is usually taken to the Teacher's Union. I don't get the idea that ESL teachers in Korea have an option like that, or do they? Is there a government, or provincial agency that keeps an eye on such things?.
Do the parties ever just agree-to-disagree or does it always wind-up getting ugly? Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Contracts in Korea are treated in a similar fashion to contracts in the US. There are, of course, language and cultural differences which create some additional difficulties outside the way people actually treat the contract in general.
In some cases the school or employer will honor the contract exactly and expect the teacher to do the same. Other employers will honor the contract only so long as it is convenient to do so. Some will fudge, stretch or break the contract as needed and then teachers have to figure out when to ignore, complain, argue, fight, sue or run away from the problem.
Teachers, too, are guilty of the same consideration of the contract. Some will honor their agreements. Others will break their contract whenever they feel like it, all the while blaming their employer.
Much of the complaining on Dave's comes from the fact that most of the teachers coming here have no job experience, no experience in any professional position, no experience working under a contract and only limited work experience as an hourly, at will employee, no experience with contracts or contract law and little to no experience living in another culture. This leads to irrational expectations and numerous misunderstandings on all sides. |
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Allthechildrenareinsane
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
Location: Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Many thanks..... your posts speak to the heart of the suspicions I've been forming.
I know that many threads and posts on this forum mention "contracts" but the situations that arise concerning those agreements don't seem to fit the idea of a contract that I know. Thats why I thought I would ask.
The sense that I get is what is being called a "contract" is more of a "handshake on paper". I don't get the idea that people go running to the lawyer and the courts over such things. Rather they seem to seek-out somebody to negotiate a difference of opinion such as a government agency (though I suppose a lawyer could be a negotiator as well). Is this pretty accurate? For teachers Stateside, problems with contracts is usually taken to the Teacher's Union. I don't get the idea that ESL teachers in Korea have an option like that, or do they? Is there a government, or provincial agency that keeps an eye on such things?.
Do the parties ever just agree-to-disagree or does it always wind-up getting ugly? Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
Well, as I see it, what really causes conflict over contracts is the different sets of cultural expectations held by Korean employers and NETs surrounding the idea of what a contract actually is. Coming from culturally "Western" societies, most NETs view a written labor contract as a formal, legally binding agreement between employer and employee that details the nature of the parties' relationship and their respective duties and responsibilities towards each other. For myself, as for a lot of NETs, if it ain't in the contract, I ain't gonna do it. Period.
In my understanding (and again, I could be off on this, but just my two cents), the contract for Korean employers is more a set of guidelines w/in which the employer-employee relationship can develop into something more interpersonal that goes beyond the bounds set by the written text.
There are pros and cons to both approaches, but speaking strictly from my own cultural perspective, obviously if you don't happen to develop a good relationship w/ your boss, then a written contract that is mutually agreed upon and respected by both parties, as written, is really, really good protection for an employee to have against mistreatment at the hands of management. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| For myself, as for a lot of NETs, if it ain't in the contract, I ain't gonna do it. Period. |
No contract covering a long period of time, such as a year of teaching, can spell out all of your duties or cover all issues that may arise. You cannot survive working as a professional under contract anywhere in the world with the attitude expressed above.
The contract isn't the problem, your employer isn't the problem and Korea isn't the problem. The attitude expressed in your quote is the problem. People with this attitude should never have a job beyond that of an hourly worker hired and fired at will. |
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Allthechildrenareinsane
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
Location: Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| For myself, as for a lot of NETs, if it ain't in the contract, I ain't gonna do it. Period. |
No contract covering a long period of time, such as a year of teaching, can spell out all of your duties or cover all issues that may arise. You cannot survive working as a professional under contract anywhere in the world with the attitude expressed above.
The contract isn't the problem, your employer isn't the problem and Korea isn't the problem. The attitude expressed in your quote is the problem. People with this attitude should never have a job beyond that of an hourly worker hired and fired at will. |
You're definitely right to state that no contract can possibly spell out each and every one of a teacher's duties or make detailed provisions for every issue that arises over the course of a year. But what contracts can do is include language that allows both parties the freedom to negotiate what should be done within reason to accommodate novel situations that require actions not already specifically covered in the contract. Most contracts that I'm seeing in my current job search don't necessarily include that language.
That said, laying things out in detail in a contract protects workers from having their labor exploited. I can only speak from my limited experience here in Korea, but coming into work on Saturdays to privately tutor the boss' daughter, correcting student essays and doing level testing during my breaks weren't stipulated in my contract, so did I have a right to refuse to do those things when I was asked to by my employer? I didn't think they were reasonable requests, so I refused.
Aren't almost all workers on an E-2 visa hourly workers, since they're paid according to the number of teaching hours they put in and are eligible for overtime pay if they exceed that number? Salaried workers are paid a flat rate per month and are not eligible for overtime.
I never meant to imply that Korea was the problem. What I meant to say was that different ideas about labor contracts and differences in respective work cultures sometimes create conflicts between the expectations of NETs and their employers in Korea. Obviously, not all Korean employers think about contracts and work in exactly the same way, nor do NETs. I was just giving my impressions of what I sense to be larger group traits, not characteristics that apply to each individual member of those groups. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: |
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I can only speak from my limited experience here in Korea, but
1) coming into work on Saturdays to privately tutor the boss' daughter,
2) correcting student essays
and
3) doing level testing during my breaks
weren't stipulated in my contract, so did I have a right to refuse to do those things when I was asked to by my employer? I didn't think they were reasonable requests, so I refused. |
(numbers added)
1) The boss asked you to give private lessons to his kid. Standard request. You can refuse, but you should do it, at a convenient time for both you and the student. Turn down the Saturday hours, suggest others. You should get paid overtime if the hours go over the contracted amount. Refuse if the hours can't be worked out or if it's overtime and you don't get paid.
2) Correcting writing and homework is part of every contract I've seen. Standard teacher work. If nothing is mentioned in the contract, then you are required to do it - it's a normal duty of any teacher, anywhere. You're refusal is a breach of contract. You could be fired for this, and should be if you fail to perform this normal teacher duty on a continuing basis.
3) Level tests need to be done. If the time is short, and the tests are infrequent, this is the kind of no biggie issue you should overlook.
| Quote: |
| Aren't almost all workers on an E-2 visa hourly workers, since they're paid according to the number of teaching hours they put in and are eligible for overtime pay if they exceed that number? Salaried workers are paid a flat rate per month and are not eligible for overtime |
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In the US, many salaried workers receive OT when they go over some specified number of hours. In some states this is required by law. This doesn't change the fact that they are salaried. If you work less than the stipulated time, you still get your full pay, so you are not hourly. |
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Allthechildrenareinsane
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
Location: Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Quote: |
I can only speak from my limited experience here in Korea, but
1) coming into work on Saturdays to privately tutor the boss' daughter,
2) correcting student essays
and
3) doing level testing during my breaks
weren't stipulated in my contract, so did I have a right to refuse to do those things when I was asked to by my employer? I didn't think they were reasonable requests, so I refused. |
(numbers added)
1) The boss asked you to give private lessons to his kid. Standard request. You can refuse, but you should do it, at a convenient time for both you and the student. Turn down the Saturday hours, suggest others. You should get paid overtime if the hours go over the contracted amount. Refuse if the hours can't be worked out or if it's overtime and you don't get paid.
2) Correcting writing and homework is part of every contract I've seen. Standard teacher work. If nothing is mentioned in the contract, then you are required to do it - it's a normal duty of any teacher, anywhere. You're refusal is a breach of contract. You could be fired for this, and should be if you fail to perform this normal teacher duty on a continuing basis.
3) Level tests need to be done. If the time is short, and the tests are infrequent, this is the kind of no biggie issue you should overlook.
| Quote: |
| Aren't almost all workers on an E-2 visa hourly workers, since they're paid according to the number of teaching hours they put in and are eligible for overtime pay if they exceed that number? Salaried workers are paid a flat rate per month and are not eligible for overtime |
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In the US, many salaried workers receive OT when they go over some specified number of hours. In some states this is required by law. This doesn't change the fact that they are salaried. If you work less than the stipulated time, you still get your full pay, so you are not hourly. |
1.) No overtime offered for the private tutoring, and no mention of working on Saturdays in the contract, so I refused.
2. & 3.) I never refused to grade essays or do level testing during the hours scheduled for those tasks. I refused when asked to do them during my dinner breaks. Does that constitute a breach of contract? I don't know, b/c the contract had nothing to say about working during breaks!
What you said about salaried employees is definitely true in some cases, but as I understand it, the majority of salaried employees in the US don't get overtime. At least, that was my experience and impression when I worked at a salaried position back home. Human resources and payroll departments in the US usually classify salaried employees as "exempt," meaning exempt from overtime pay, while hourly employees are usually classified as "non-exempt," meaning they qualify for overtime pay. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Short (?) Contract thread |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
A lot of people seem very concerned about the nature of their contracts and how the contract can be used to enforce demands of one party against another. This has me scratching my head a bit.
Here in the States contracts can be drawn-up between parties. There are also pre-printed forms that outline general responsibilities with locations at the end for special conditions. Apartment leases are probably the best example of this last.
I'm wondering what the nature of these contracts are.
Do individual schools have unique contracts drawn-up or are there general agreements used by most institutions? Are contracts for private schools generally the same as Public schools or are there significant differences?
The use of contracts also has a lot to do with the culture. Here in the States everything is about the "letter of the law" and what was on the page when it was signed. Is this the same for the Korean culture?
IOW, are these real contracts with a capital "C" or more along the lines of "memorandum of understanding"?
Do the contracts and their enforcement vary depending on location in the country or the nature of the school?
I know some of these questions must seem pretty obvious to old-timers, and it would be easy for me to assume.....
Of course, you know what happens when you ass u me, right? Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
Bottom line:
Contracts in the states are written in stone unless you can find some reason to legally void a clause or there is some reach of law that makes part of a contract voidable.
However this is NOT the Litigious States of America. To quote the embassy's publication in this regard, "
Nature of Contracts in Korea
Many foreign-language institutions view a contract as just part of the process of beginning a relationship with an instructor. The contract is only as binding as the personal connection. Therefore, foreign instructors sometimes have contract disputes with their employers. The employer may consider the contract a simple working agreement, infinitely flexible and subject to change (usually after the foreign teacher has arrived in Korea). The real contract is not a written one, but an unwritten, oral agreement. Most Koreans do not view deviations from a contract as a "breach," and few would consider taking an employer to court over a contract dispute. You should bear these factors in mind when signing a contract. " |
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