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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Canadian women with Master's degrees clean up in Korea. They get great jobs. Women are sought after by many universities because, if you look at the foreign teaching staff at a lot schools, their foreign EFL teachers are overwhelmingly male. And it doesn't matter where you go - Thailand, Taiwan, Japan - most of the teachers are men.
So, even if a female applicant is less qualified than the other male candidates, I've seen where the female applicant was hired. Simply because the dept. didn't have any female foreign EFL teachers.
A Canadian woman with an M.A. TESOL and CELTA would pretty much get any job she applies for.
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Which goes back to my original point and that is teaching ESL in the USA, Canada and the rest of the inner-circle countries is predominantly a female job.
As edwardcatflap points out, its mostly men teaching EFL in Korea, Japan etc and he is right. However the gender situation wouldn't be ANY DIFFERENT in EFL countries like Japan, S. Korea and the ME except for the fact that the countries' cultures aren't as accommodating for women. THe misogyny is a huge turn off for women after a year or two and that is why most pack their bags. If conditions for women were like they were back home, I would think more women would stay and most men would get the boot. ESPECIALLY in uni jobs where as the previous poster said, a woman from Canada with a relevant MA will get interviews galore. The position is considered a female position but isn't in S. Korea because there simply aren't enough females that stick around due to cultural host-country factors that have nothing to do with EFL teaching. Men win out by default which would NOT happen if the playing field was level.
Face it boys, lack of credentials notwithstanding, most of us wouldn't stand a chance at getting a uni position back home where there is actual competition for positions. We just win out because other than western males, there really isn't any other alternative. Hence the Canadian, American, Australian slobs that apply for uni positions and actually get them. Yes I've seen many of these types on 3 campuses where I studied Korean. Many DO get jobs in Seoul with their MA in psychology believe it or not.
THe other point that CaptainCorea pointed out is also huge. I know personally 2 guys that got axed from their university for screwing around. I'm sure it happens quite a bit. Students in Canada that take ESL classes actually prefer female teachers as well because it is peace of mind. There was a reason that my old school in Canada had mostly female teachers, and any of the guys were 45+ (on an insane contract from the 80s that doesn't exist anymore) and married. |
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abright1dea
Joined: 06 Nov 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
I think one of the reasons why employers favour young inexperienced women is that they think they won't kick up too much of a fuss about how much they get paid.  |
Oh c'mon give me a number here! I want to be in Busan, NOT a split shift job, and not kindy. Those are really my only job requirements. Will someone give me a range I should shoot for? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: wow ... |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
sirius black is siriusly mistaken - his 'generally speaking heirarchy' in this particular post does not reflect reality, just his supposition.
Captain Corea, on the other hand, might just be the oracle. |
Captain Corea is also right (as is my post). Its also amazing from reading your post just how seriously out of touch or removed from reality some are. I wonder if after reading posts like this some folks even teach in Korea or if so, shockingly still have no idea what goes on in the country.
lol..amazing.
On a side note, the banging of students is routine for male Korean teachers. They go after students and its tolerated as a 'perk' on the job as long as they are public about it. its hush hush. Different rules for native English speakers. Quick way to get fired if its found out and even in some cases suspected with no proof if the rumor takes hold. Fired under the 'bring the uni in disrepute' part of uni contracts. Ironically, when ever I've heard of these cases its the female student who initiates contact and the reverse for Korean profs. |
Yup, this jives exactly with what I've heard. The k-Profs do it all the time. The expat profs, well, there's usually a big scandal attached to it - and a lot of that is drawn on themselves by some massive drug/orgy/stalking blowout.
If I was in charge of hiring, you bet I'd look long and hard for a female to fill those slots. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Face it boys, lack of credentials notwithstanding, most of us wouldn't stand a chance at getting a uni position back home where there is actual competition for positions |
The Percentage of women in higher education teaching positions in the UK is 44%, and professors less than 20% (2010) so I don't really know what you're trying to say.
http://www.oxbridgeessays.com/blog/fewer-than-1-in-5-uk-university-professors-are-female-766/ |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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edwardcatflap wrote:
I think one of the reasons why employers favour young inexperienced women is that they think they won't kick up too much of a fuss about how much they get paid.
Oh c'mon give me a number here! I want to be in Busan, NOT a split shift job, and not kindy. Those are really my only job requirements. Will someone give me a range I should shoot for? |
Maybe it was unintentional but you seemed to be implying 'I'm an attractive, athletically built (why is that worth mentioning?) white female so I think I should get paid more than the average Joe. I mean if you just want to know the average starting salary for entry level jobs here fair enough, I misunderstood. It's around 2.0-2.3 million as far as I know. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Anohter thing is men generally stick around longer in Korea. Universities don't want to have to hire a new teacher every year or every other year. F visa holders are long termers and live locally so they get preference. Fact is males, generally speaking, tend to stay in Korea longer than females do.
So, although women are preferred the turnover is higher in many cases.
As the quality of the school increases the male or female, looks, etc. aspect decreases. Generally speaking. Your small private struggling uni who pays under 2 mil is different than the "SKY" unis where they don't care as much for looks, etc. if you have the background. Generally speaking. If you have a Master's from a good school, or a PhD, they aren't as uptight about what you look like. Generally, there are exceptions.
Anyway, women, espcially attractive white women (and to a slightly lesser extent attractive women of any hue) get the jobs.
In hogwons many male directors hire women based purely on looks hoping to bang a foreign girl. I had a friend who was told specifically she was chosen because she was the prettiest of the resumes and a few others who had male directors invite them to dinner and drinks constantly.
Once or twice the same for a guy I've seen as well. A friend was constantly hit on by his female director. He invited me to a happy hour type of meet up for his school and sure enough the director got drunk and started hitting on him, then me. There's all kinds. |
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Mr Lee's Monkey
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:36 pm Post subject: the hierarchy |
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sirius - I honestly thought when I read your list that you meant to be posting facts - stats - about who is working where in what numbers, and I don't believe your list accurately reflects those.
Maybe somebody could add those to the discussion.
I'm always learning and hearing new things about what's actually going on here, and had no idea about the male teachers in universities situation that you and CC brought up. I readily admit to a duh factor on my part, but I still think the stats reflect that the majority of esl teachers in Korea are male and not female. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, but that's because more males are willing to come here in the first place.
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| according to a new analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group. In two cities, Atlanta and Memphis, those women are making about 20% more. This squares with earlier research from Queens College, New York, that had suggested that this was happening in major metropolises. But the new study suggests that the gap is bigger than previously thought, with young women in New York City, Los Angeles and San Diego making 17%, 12% and 15% more than their male peers, respectively. And it also holds true even in reasonably small areas like the Raleigh-Durham region and Charlotte in North Carolina (both 14% more), and Jacksonville, Fla. (6%). |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: the hierarchy |
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| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
sirius - I honestly thought when I read your list that you meant to be posting facts - stats - about who is working where in what numbers, and I don't believe your list accurately reflects those.
Maybe somebody could add those to the discussion.
I'm always learning and hearing new things about what's actually going on here, and had no idea about the male teachers in universities situation that you and CC brought up. I readily admit to a duh factor on my part, but I still think the stats reflect that the majority of esl teachers in Korea are male and not female. |
The majority of foreign teachers are male but the schools prefer young , attractive white females. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: the hierarchy |
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| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
sirius - I honestly thought when I read your list that you meant to be posting facts - stats - about who is working where in what numbers, and I don't believe your list accurately reflects those.
Maybe somebody could add those to the discussion.
I'm always learning and hearing new things about what's actually going on here, and had no idea about the male teachers in universities situation that you and CC brought up. I readily admit to a duh factor on my part, but I still think the stats reflect that the majority of esl teachers in Korea are male and not female. |
The majority of foreign teachers are male but the schools prefer young , attractive white females. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: the hierarchy |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| The majority of foreign teachers are male but the schools prefer young , attractive white females. |
Yes, the Koreans work with what they've got - an abundance of Canadian males - but they always hope that they can get any white, native English speaking female, even without an M.A., publications, TEFL Cert. or CELTA / DELTA. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:10 am Post subject: Re: the hierarchy |
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| I'm With You wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| The majority of foreign teachers are male but the schools prefer young , attractive white females. |
Yes, the Koreans work with what they've got - an abundance of Canadian males - but they always hope that they can get any white, native English speaking female, even without an M.A., publications, TEFL Cert. or CELTA / DELTA. |
Don't be so sure. Korean recruiters (including women) discriminate against older white women in their late 30s up. I've met several ladies who have great cvs without possessing official teaching certs and they'd walk into jobs in Japan if they were there already.
One was 39, others mid to late 40s. They look good for their age, dress well, and can do any teaching asked of them, can teach w/out a set curriculum, can make their own. All 3 of em told me how hard it was to get a job in Korea. They work at hagwons that are well below their capabilities but for various reasons didn't want to teach thru Epik.
They got stonewalled repeatedly, baited and then switched, and in all cases were told by both Korean male and Korean female recruiters that they wouldn't be able to work in Seoul. And they couldn't. They got jobs in rural, semi rural areas. Koreans have a certain respect for age but not when the foreigners are older.
Paunchy, relatively inexperienced foreign men who marry Koreans have it all over foreign women on E-2 visas, white, black or Asian, especially older women no matter how professional they are and look. |
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Soldier
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:23 am Post subject: Sigh... |
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| As I said before...there is a law of the land that all employers have to hire a quota of females...it's the law. That's the basics. yes...there are social requirements as well. The social revolution as happened. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I find this thread... interesting.
I've known pervy hiring staff/principals in both hagwons and public schools, of both sexes, from their unwanted advance and rumor. Since Korea really is the 'Wild West' for hiring, employers can ask for what they want without repercussion (Whites Only/Females Only). They aren't very professional, but they are also the easiest to work for so long as you don't compromise your integrity. Truth is that a strong network, as has been said numerous times by the Silverbacks of this board, and upgrading ones own qualifications will get you beyond the simple Wonderland kindy or rural "only hagwon in town" into the career desired. Age is not a drawback if you have been here for years, it is the lack of networking.
If you really want a university job, check the job board to see what the GOOD unis want. Talk to people that are where you want to be and learn from them. So many come here and complain "it isn't possible" then give up.  |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ThingsComeAround wrote: |
| Truth is that a strong network, as has been said numerous times by the Silverbacks of this board, and upgrading ones own qualifications will get you beyond the simple Wonderland kindy or rural "only hagwon in town" into the career desired. Age is not a drawback if you have been here for years, it is the lack of networking. |
Well course some people are going to say that. Do you think anyone is going to admit they were hired more for their visa type and/or being at the right place at the right time (in Korea back when it was unknown by most, and hence had few expats) than anything else? People who got into ESL early (when fewer people knew about it) fared the best.
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| As Colombia has gradually opened up more to the world and more foreigners have arrived there, pay and benefits have come down quite a lot in the last 20 years (a decent high school contract paid at least 50% more 20 years ago than it does now). In the past, somebody with a CELTA, degree and a year of experience could jump into a very well paid, very senior position. Now, you would need 10-20 years experience (most of it in-country), a relevant masters degree and a lot of luck for such a position. |
Do you get what I'm saying?
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I started in 2003 in Busan. At the end of my first year at a elementary hogwon chain one of the other teachers got a job teaching at a pretty good Busan university. He had one year of hogwon experience and a bachelors degree. He was about 30, normal looking.
At the end of his 2nd year at the same hogwon my friend was offered a job at a national university in Busan. Bachelors, maybe 28 years old, normal looking guy.
I doubt they'd even get interviewed now.
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On a side note, these are some of the pricks that interview now and look down at other ESL teachers. Nowadays, they wouldn't be interviewed for the job that they are overseeing. |
Should I go to a third world country and tell the people there the reason they are poor is their laziness and lack of networking? Guess what? Life's not fair. I was born into the the wealthiest country in the world, and was born speaking English as my mother tongue. Because of this, I have many opportunities (including teaching ESL in Korea) that most others do not. Fair? No. Reality? Yes. What do unis look for now (besides females)? Verifiable university teaching experience. Because of a new law, they are looking for people with an MA and two years uni experience OR a BA and four years uni experience. Before, an MA was enough for unis to get extra funding. Pretty much if you had an MA (in any subject area) you were automatically hired, no questions asked. (It used to be like that in Taiwan, too.) But that was the past. Now is different. University are hard as heck to get into these days, and that is especially true if one has no prior university experience.
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| More and more places wont look at your application if you don't have a masters. And these days, more and more ppl are on the scene with such papers, or taking courses to get them. Whats's more, most unis are looking for former uni exerience AT LEAST, so it's that classic catch 22 of not being able to get in period. |
That universities in Korea in general (including "good" universities) prefer females over males (and are hiring women with BAs over men with MAs) is disgraceful. Why have a dialogue about it? Because when we talk about problems, possible solutions can be found. Maybe people will think, "Hey it seems like Western males are being unfairly portrayed in the Korean media, and this is impacting my professional life, including the amount of money I can make (from privates, uni jobs, etc.). |
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