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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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zpeanut
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Location: Pohang, Korea
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
In the hogwons and public schools ..
The heirarchy, generally speaking, in Korea is as such with regards to who gets hired:
1. white female
2. white male
3. black female
4. black male
and if you're in the 'other' latino, or other ethnic group, you get lumped somewhere after white male depending a variety of factors.
Also, this heirarchy may change because of age, physical attractiveness. A handsome young white male get a job over a fat, older white female for example. Or a lighter skinned, pretty black female gets chosen over a loser looking white male. However, generally, this is the heirarchy.
It is what it is. |
So i'm guessing no white females or white males applied for my job?
Yeah.. I do see the intrigue that 'white' people evoke in Koreans.. but I've noticed that the traits valued in Korea are similar to some of those back home.
It seems beauty and charisma are high up there. People with these traits, no matter what background they are, are usually quite successful in Korea (given they also have the qualifications). So, it's not as 'black and white' as you might think it is (hehe?).
Also, whoever is doing the hiring makes a big difference.
Though, I won't deny that being 'white' and 'female' does give you a good head start. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| zpeanut wrote: |
Also, whoever is doing the hiring makes a big difference.
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This is true. It all comes down to impressing key people doing the hiring, whether they be Korean or foreign teachers.
I've seen where a couple of friends get rejected by low ranking colleges here and then do another interview with much better schools and get offered jobs.
So it doesn't always come down to qualifications, either.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of dumb people in key positions at universities here, particularly foreigners. |
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Seoul_newbie
Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Most interviewers are women = handsome young polite man is preferred
Most interviewers are men = Beautiful young polite woman is preferred
Most interviewers are old/middle aged = expect racism |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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A recruiter posted this today:
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| *Preference : Beginner USA/CA Female teacher. |
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* I would like to have couple clear color face and full length pictures, if you don't mind.
the director will get a first impression by picture. so if you can offer several pictures to decide. then It will make director job easy. |
Unbelievable. |
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Seoul_newbie
Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Korea cannot call itself a developed country when such practices are rampant. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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The Korean Sentry weighs in:
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| This problem is happened because lack of genuine ESL teachers out there. We can't expect over 100,000 ESL teachers to behave accordingly to expectation. There are too many male ESL teachers in S.Korea, Korean language hagwons should employ more female ESL teachers to counter this degrading image of male ESL teachers. Besides women makes better at linguistic field than men. With all that plenty of ESL teachings in Korea, most of Korean students who came here to Australia fails basic English test, something is not right isn't it? Is either students were lazy or teachers are incompetence, some ESL teachers don't even have proper teaching & language qualification. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| This problem is happened because lack of genuine ESL teachers out there. We can't expect over 100,000 ESL teachers to behave accordingly to expectation. There are too many male ESL teachers in S.Korea, Korean language hagwons should employ more female ESL teachers to counter this degrading image of male ESL teachers. Besides women makes better at linguistic field than men. With all that plenty of ESL teachings in Korea, most of Korean students who came here to Australia fails basic English test, something is not right isn't it? Is either students were lazy or teachers are incompetence, some ESL teachers don't even have proper teaching & language qualification. |
So it looks like the guy who wrote that is either a guy, or was taught by one  |
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newinseoul
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: the hierarchy |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| I'm With You wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| The majority of foreign teachers are male but the schools prefer young , attractive white females. |
Yes, the Koreans work with what they've got - an abundance of Canadian males - but they always hope that they can get any white, native English speaking female, even without an M.A., publications, TEFL Cert. or CELTA / DELTA. |
Don't be so sure. Korean recruiters (including women) discriminate against older white women in their late 30s up. I've met several ladies who have great cvs without possessing official teaching certs and they'd walk into jobs in Japan if they were there already.
One was 39, others mid to late 40s. They look good for their age, dress well, and can do any teaching asked of them, can teach w/out a set curriculum, can make their own. All 3 of em told me how hard it was to get a job in Korea. They work at hagwons that are well below their capabilities but for various reasons didn't want to teach thru Epik.
They got stonewalled repeatedly, baited and then switched, and in all cases were told by both Korean male and Korean female recruiters that they wouldn't be able to work in Seoul. And they couldn't. They got jobs in rural, semi rural areas. Koreans have a certain respect for age but not when the foreigners are older.
Paunchy, relatively inexperienced foreign men who marry Koreans have it all over foreign women on E-2 visas, white, black or Asian, especially older women no matter how professional they are and look. |
I am in my late 30's, female and highly qualified. I never had a problem getting a job in Korea. I worked in a hakwon and two different public school boards. I also had great references from previous Korean employers which helped. |
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Soldier
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:40 pm Post subject: Gender Equity |
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I said it before...I will say it again...the Korean Government wants gender equity...it is part of the political platform....the same as the previous government. It doesn't just apply to ESL jobs...but to all jobs in Korea...it is the law of the land...just like it is the law of the land in the West.
I would like to see racial equity and disability equity as well in this field. The Korean Gov't has at least wised up and hired African Canadian/Americans and other visable minorities in the public schools and universities. Now let's see the Hakwans do the same. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| Life is not fair guys, go find some better job. |
For once I agree with Moondoggy. These are crap jobs. |
'Fox and the Grapes' knee jerk defence mechanism? How do you know those jobs are bad? How do you know they by their nature would have crap conditions (like meddling bosses, short vacation, low pay, etc.)? They don't. The fact of the matter is, being female in Korea means more desirability/more leverage/more value/more bargaining power.
I'm With You has been in the Korean university system for a LONG time. Do you not believe him when he says females are preferred? (Or maybe you think by extention, ESL jobs at his uni must be crap?)
I know a woman who, with just an unrelated B.A., and with experience limited to teaching young children only, landed a position at one of the most plum uni jobs in all of Korea (at incidentally one of the top ranked universities). How did she do it? A 외국인 lifer who worked there told her he would recommend her. (He was probably trying to kick game.) The university's official policy was to only consider those with an M.A. or higher; an M.A was a requisite to apply. "No problem," said the school, and she was hired.
Lest the madokas of this site accuse me of being a liar, I will give a specific verifiable example of someone who has chimed in in this thread.
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
Plenty of men are wusses. Plenty of women are strong.
I think that the real reason is because of the fear of molestation, though. Men tend to dominate when it comes to that kind of crime. It's unfair to paint all men with that brush, though, and the hiring practice is garbage. |
NYC_Gal 2.0 recently switched from teaching elementary kids at a hagwon to a good university position. The university at which she now works (like the above example) has an official policy of only hiring those with an M.A. How'd she get in then? Hmmmm....
I guess the take home lesson is, if you are female, a different set of standards apply. Official policies can be waved. Have you ever heard of an instance (in 2013, not long ago in the past when university jobs were easy to get) when a male with an unrelated B.A. and experience limited to teaching young children went from a kids hagwon to a good university in or around Seoul? Neither have I.
Edwardcatflap, do you agree with the following sentiment? Why or why not?
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| If I was in charge of hiring, you bet I'd look long and hard for a female to fill those slots. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Life is not fair guys, go find some better job. |
For once I agree with Moondoggy. These are crap jobs. |
'Fox and the Grapes' knee jerk defence mechanism? How do you know those jobs are bad? How do you know they by their nature would have crap conditions (like meddling bosses, short vacation, low pay, etc.)? They don't. The fact of the matter is, being female in Korea means more desirability/more leverage/more value/more bargaining power.
I'm With You has been in the Korean university system for a LONG time. Do you not believe him when he says females are preferred? (Or maybe you think by extention, ESL jobs at his uni must be crap?)
I know a woman who, with just an unrelated B.A., and with experience limited to teaching young children only, landed a position at one of the most plum uni jobs in all of Korea (at incidentally one of the top ranked universities). How did she do it? A 외국인 lifer who worked there told her he would recommend her. (He was probably trying to kick game.) The university's official policy was to only consider those with an M.A. or higher; an M.A was a requisite to apply. "No problem," said the school, and she was hired.
Lest the madokas of this site accuse me of being a liar, I will give a specific verifiable example of someone who has chimed in in this thread.
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
Plenty of men are wusses. Plenty of women are strong.
I think that the real reason is because of the fear of molestation, though. Men tend to dominate when it comes to that kind of crime. It's unfair to paint all men with that brush, though, and the hiring practice is garbage. |
NYC_Gal 2.0 recently switched from teaching elementary kids at a hagwon to a good university position. The university at which she now works (like the above example) has an official policy of only hiring those with an M.A. How'd she get in then? Hmmmm....
I guess the take home lesson is, if you are female, a different set of standards apply. Official policies can be waved. Have you ever heard of an instance (in 2013, not long ago in the past when university jobs were easy to get) when a male with an unrelated B.A. and experience limited to teaching young children went from a kids hagwon to a good university in or around Seoul? Neither have I.
Edwardcatflap, do you agree with the following sentiment? Why or why not?
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| If I was in charge of hiring, you bet I'd look long and hard for a female to fill those slots. |
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I believe that females are preferred in general, but I don't think it's necessarily the case at my uni. We have far more males than females.
Are there more males with an M.A. out there? I'm not sure. I have seen ads on job sites where they were purposely seeking females at hagwons.
Perhaps, they feel that females are more docile, easier for them to control. The person who does the hiring is female. Anyway, many Koreans are traditional-minded and think that females would be better at teaching their children. If someone is required to have an M.A., then every candidate should have an M.A. You shouldn't be able to have that requirement waved merely because you happen to be female. It's patently unfair because it takes 2 years of hard work to get an M.A., and all the instructors should have it if the uni says it's a requirement. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| If someone is required to have an M.A., then every candidate should have an M.A. You shouldn't be able to have that requirement waved merely because you happen to be female. It's patently unfair because it takes 2 years of hard work to get an M.A., and all the instructors should have it if the uni says it's a requirement. |
Correct.
I think the M.A. requirement is for new hires though. Those who happened to be in Korea back when hiring standards were very low are allowed to keep the plum job at the top ranked university with just their unrelated B.A. Unfair as hell, just like it is unfair females are being given preference now. Last night I met a women who was telling me she doesn't really like being in Korea but decided to stay because she got a good university job. She said she is totally unqualified for it, but got it simply for having the F-4 visa. (I was thinking in my mind when she said that that she got the job simply for having the F visa AND for being female.) |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
The Korean Sentry weighs in:
| Quote: |
| This problem is happened because lack of genuine ESL teachers out there. We can't expect over 100,000 ESL teachers to behave accordingly to expectation. There are too many male ESL teachers in S.Korea, Korean language hagwons should employ more female ESL teachers to counter this degrading image of male ESL teachers. Besides women makes better at linguistic field than men. With all that plenty of ESL teachings in Korea, most of Korean students who came here to Australia fails basic English test, something is not right isn't it? Is either students were lazy or teachers are incompetence, some ESL teachers don't even have proper teaching & language qualification. |
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hahaha
He's always good for a laugh.
I often wonder how he'd actually fare here. Perhaps he'll save up one day and move to "his homeland". |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Edwardcatflap, do you agree with the following sentiment? Why or why not?
Captain Corea wrote:
If I was in charge of hiring, you bet I'd look long and hard for a female to fill those slots.
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No I wouldn't. I'd draw up a list of requirements with regards to qualifications and experience then I'd draw up a list of interview questions I think would determine the best shortlisted person for the job. And any place that doesn't do the same kind of thing isn't somewhere I'd want to work.
Yes some males might misbehave with some of the students but on the other hand where I work there have been a lot more problems with prolonged absenteeism from females. It generally evens itself out in the end. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:53 am Post subject: |
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If it is an equity policy then there is very little you can do about it. We have such policies in the public sector where I work. However, judgement and discernment can be used by the hiring committee.
Still, for all the whining about women being preferred by employers, I am curious at what the actual (read stats) proportion of men and women is in the foreign teaching community.
You guys also do realize that in many humanities dept in western universities, women outnumber men as students right? Numbers will tell at some point. |
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